Re: Difference between MSDN version and RTM version of ISA 2004
- From: "Jim Harrison" <Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "[ISAserver.org Discussion List]" <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 08:07:51 -0700
Oooohhh.. can we save the rough stuff for Vegas?
:-P
Actually, I was referring to quantity, not quality.
What's funny is that we're arguing the same points from different
perspectives.
Yours was primarily "SKU vs. version" and mine was "supported vs. FOAD".
It's true that the definition of "production" can be (and often is)
easily misinterpreted.
-----Original Message-----
From: Thor (Hammer of God) [mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 7:07 AM
To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
Subject: [isalist] Re: Difference between MSDN version and RTM version
of ISA 2004
http://www.ISAserver.org
You went there? Wow. I see how you are ;)
I guess I'll have to be a bit rough with you the next time I give you a
good
schooling, eh?
;)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Harrison" <Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "[ISAserver.org Discussion List]" <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 6:36 AM
Subject: [isalist] Re: Difference between MSDN version and RTM version
of
ISA 2004
> http://www.ISAserver.org
>
> AAAAAaaaauuuuugggghhhhh!
> Tony got to Timmy!
>
> Intervention!!!!!!
> :-)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thor (Hammer of God) [mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 1:01 AM
> To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> Subject: [isalist] Re: Difference between MSDN version and RTM version
> of ISA 2004
>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
>
> Actually, the key word was "caveat" used in conjunction with "many."
The
> use
> of "development" would be second in emphasis.
> And I said MCP's or Channel Partners (or anyone else who may buy or
> qualify
> for a Universal
> Subscription). I didn't say MVP or MSD.
>
> I shall elaborate:
>
> The Universal Subscription does indeed allow some products to be used
> for
> production purposes. While normal production use is indeed
prohibited,
> the
> acceptions are as follows (I've provided a link for reference):
>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscriptions/faq/default.aspx#licensing
>
> <snip>
> a.. One exception is that the MSDN Universal Subscription comes with
one
> license to Desktop Applications (typically on blue discs) such as
> Microsoft
> Office Professional Enterprise Edition 2003 (which includes Microsoft
> Word,
> Access, Excel, Outlook, PowerPoint, InfoPath, OneNote and Publisher),
> Visio
> Standard 2003, and Project Standard 2003 for business use directly
> related
> to the design, development, test, and/or demonstration of software
> projects.
> For example, you can use Project to manage a development project, use
> Visio
> to diagram your application, etc.
> a.. In addition, one copy of Office Professional Enterprise Edition
2003
> can
> be used for general business use, unrelated to development and
testing.
> Again, only persons with an MSDN Universal Subscription license can
use
> these Microsoft Office products in this manner.
> </snip>
>
> Other programs not specifically listed but that may also be used in
> production are Front Page 2003, MapPoint, Small Business Manager, and
> even
> Great Plains 7.5 (since the acquisition.)
>
> In addition to the above allowance for use "directly related to the
> design,
> development, test, etc," my reference to some MSDN programs that may
be
> used
> for "development" of applications is explained in the FAQ:
>
> <snip>
> a.. Can I use the Visual Studio product to create an executable file
and
> distribute this file for sale?
>
> Yes. Applications, utilities, and executables you develop using Visual
> Studio, Access, or Office Developer can be distributed to customers
> royalty-free, pursuant to the terms of the corresponding End-User
> License
> Agreement (EULA). In addition, there are many redistributable
components
> included with Visual Studio, which you are welcome to incorporate into
> your
> applications and distribute for free pursuant to the terms of the
Visual
> Studio EULA.
> Please note there is a royalty for Microsoft server products that are
> distributed with applications. For more information see the Product
> Integration Program.
>
> a.. Can I use Office, Project, and Visio for development and testing
of
> applications?
>
> Yes. Office Professional Enterprise Edition 2003, Project Standard and
> Visio
> Standard can be used for business use directly related to the design,
> development, testing and demonstration phases of building
applications.
> In
> addition, one copy of Office Professional Enterprise Edition 2003 can
be
> used for general business use by each licensed MSDN Universal
> subscriber.
> Project Professional 2003, Project Server 2003 and Microsoft Office
> Project
> Server 2003 Client Access License are not currently available for
> business
> purposes under the MSDN licensing agreement.
> </snip>
>
> So, simply put, you do indeed get a license to use a copy of the above
> products included in the Universal MSDN kit to design, develop, and
> distribute customized solutions to one's customer base- that's what I
> meant
> by "install the software in "production" environments when the
> environment
> exists to develop solutions for the company's clients."
>
> Regarding support, it is based on the MSDN subscription type.
> Personally, I
> get 5 support incidents a year for free for whatever product I want
(as
> long
> as it was in my kit.) Each incident is supported to its resolution,
> regardless of how long it takes. The normal Universal MSDN kit
includes
> 4,
> but the same rules apply. So, if I load Exchange Server 2003 for
> testing,
> and something doesn't work properly, I can get full support of the
issue
> by
> using one of my incidents. Same for SQL, Visual Basic, ISA, etc.
>
> Your disappointed "customers" must have received a "free" or "bonus"
> MSDN
> subscription as part of another program, where, as you say, they do
not
> get
> PSS. For instance, regarding support, the "kit" you get as an MCP
does
> not
> include support. But purchased MSDN subscriptions do. See:
>
> <snip>
> MSDN Subscriptions in North America include technical support
incidents
> for
> products that ship with an MSDN subscription.
>
> a.. MSDN Universal includes four technical support incidents and
> managed
> newsgroup support.*
> b.. MSDN Enterprise includes three technical support incidents and
> managed
> newsgroup support.
> c.. MSDN Professional includes two technical support incidents and
> managed
> newsgroup support.
> d.. MSDN Operating Systems includes two technical support incidents
> and
> managed newsgroup support.
> MSDN subscribers outside North America, please visit MSDN Support
> Options.
>
> * Microsoft Certified Partners Subscribers receive access to MSDN
public
> newsgroups and additional technical support provided through Microsoft
> for
> Partners. Above incidents and newsgroup support are not included.
> </snip>
>
> Again, regarding the bits, I wasn't arguing... And my reply was more
> towards
> some of the earlier posts- I just wanted to point out that one should
> not
> use the term "MSDN" to describe product versions, as it is a
> subscription-
> one with many different levels and associated services.
>
> Ni.
>
> T
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Harrison" <Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "[ISAserver.org Discussion List]" <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 10:13 PM
> Subject: [isalist] Re: Difference between MSDN version and RTM version
> of
> ISA 2004
>
>
>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>
>> The key phrase in your missive was "development".
>> MSDN bits are not to be used to "serve your company", but to allow
you
>> to work with the product to learn and develop your deployment /
> add-on.
>>
>> The EULA term "production" is not as you describe, where an MVP or
MSD
>> is working towards a whitepaper / deployment solution, but where a
>> business is using it to serve their office web site / browsing needs.
>> I've had to disappoint more than one "customer" when they wanted to
>> "extend the timeout", or wanted to get PSS support for MSDN
>> subscriptions.
>> The support for MSDN is very limited and assumes that the subscriber
> has
>> something more than a minimum of knowledge.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Thor (Hammer of God) [mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:28 PM
>> To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
>> Subject: [isalist] Re: Difference between MSDN version and RTM
version
>> of ISA 2004
>>
>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>
>> Not to sound as if I disagree, but one should note that while
> comparing
>>
>> "MSDN" to "RTM" may seem analogous (in its true sense), they should
> not
>> be
>> considered "identical."
>>
>> MSDN is a subscription to products; RTM is a product version. The RTM
>> version will always be thus, while the bits on the MSDN subscription
> are
>>
>> updated to include slipstreamed service packs and hotfixes (like XP
> PRO
>> SP1a
>> or SQL 2000 SP3) as they become available. In regard to ISA 2004,
>> whoever
>> said to "wait for the update" had it backwards- the RTM version was
>> available for general distribution far before it was published in the
>> MSDN.
>> The other poster who said not to use the MSDN bits for production, as
> if
>> it
>> was not stable, un-supported, or in some way to always be assumed as
>> "beta,"
>> was also incorrect-- unless, of course, the version included in the
> MSDN
>>
>> subscription was a beta to begin with.
>>
>> Also, there is a caveat to the "not supported on production servers"
>> EULA
>> for many of the platforms included in one's MSDN subscription: MCP's
> or
>>
>> Channel Partners (which I am) can use the volume licenses (based on
>> tier) to
>> install the software in "production" environments when the
environment
>> exists to develop solutions for the company's clients.
>>
>> Just had to add my .02....
>>
>> T
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Jim Harrison
>> To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:19 PM
>> Subject: [isalist] Re: Difference between MSDN version and RTM
version
>> of
>> ISA 2004
>>
>>
>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>
>> MSDN version is not supported on production servers (part of the EULA
>> you
>> agree to when you install).
>> Functionally, they're identical.
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> Jim Harrison
>> MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
>> http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
>> http://isatools.org
>> Read the help / books / articles!
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: michel girgis [mailto:michel_girgis@xxxxxxxxx]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 16:18
>> To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
>> Subject: [isalist] Re: Difference between MSDN version and RTM
version
>> of
>> ISA 2004
>>
>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>> yes you should wait
>>
>>
>> tim S <tim724342@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>> I was wondering if there is any difference between MSDN and RTM
> release
>> of
>> ISA 2004.
>>
>> I already setup the ISA 2004 using MSDN version and in the process of
>> applying for a license for the production environment. So I was
>> wondering
>> if I should wait until I get the RTM copy.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>>
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