[Ilugc] Re: Are you serious?
- From: sudharsan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sudharsan S.N.)
- Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:26:41 +0100 (BST)
Hallo luggians,
Sorry guys, I`m just resending my second post to
the Are you serious thread, as it came out in HTML
from Rediffmail. I`ve just added myself to Yahoo. But
kindly reply to: sudharsan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
======================================================
But look at
the sheer difference in scale here..Windows runs over
95% of the world's
desktops(I'm making up that statistic..but I'm sure
its pretty close to
the real number).
That is what is changing!! I mean that 'percentage'!!
Now, let's say that I want to teach how to use a
computer to my mom.
Which OS do you think she would have a better
experience with? Windows
which takes you on a tour of the OS at start-up or >
any Linux distro
which asks you whether you want to partition your
hard-disk and whether
you want your bootloader on your MBR?
The question of installing the bootloader in the MBR
is for people like us who wud want a better
organization of our hard disks and not for our moms
who wud want to get simple jobs done. Your mom wud
obviously be worried abt operating it after its is
being loaded and not abt how partitioning being done.
If you leave ur mom with a fresh hard disk and a
windows CD same wud be the case!! Considering it`s a
fresh hard disk and a Linux distro it is very much the
same.
The problem comes only when there is an exisiting
windows platform and u install Linux on the free space
u have, and once again ur mom wud have to be worried
only abt working on the OS than trying to install the
boot loader. Well, I`d presume u cud install it for
her!! Any user like ur mom or even my mom wud only be
worried how simple the OS works and once you/me going
to teach her it doesnt really make a difference
between windows and linux.
Trying to say she is going to find Windows easier and
Linux worser, makes a difference if u r going to teach
her Linux. As for her experience, if ur going to
start with the basics, trying to explain things on how
to work - it doesn`t really make a difference and
trying to say windows wud be 'superior' is not to be
assumed. As I very clearly said the availability of
code does not matter and the ease-of-use point is also
not to be taken considering the visual interfaces in
both make it simple. You cud have showed me earlier
Linux versions but presently the thing that really
drives Linux distros is not all these OSS stuff
entirely......they r really focussing on making it
really simpler and they have made it really simple
than what it used to be.
BTW, I'm not the only one ranting about poor
usability in OSS
software...some one called Eric.S.Raymond had a
pretty long and nasty
rant about how bad the UI is in most OSS software...
Trying to say UIs are bad in all OSS is a spurious
argument in itself. It all depends upon the user, and
present day if u consider proprietary Windows and OSS
Linux the UI does not differ to the 'bad' extent.
Your ranting isnt going to make a difference in the
quality of the UIs. CUIs are amazing in UNIX/Linux and
hardcore programmers know that better.
If you try to compare the CUI MS-Dos with UNIX/Linux,
ur joking!! When it comes to GUIs there isn`t a big
difference!! GUI is a concept and a technology in
itself and trying to say that GUIs in OSS are 'bad'
very well applies to Windows which also believes that
GUI is the best thing promoting it`s 'quality'. Trying
to compare two OSs on the same technology of GUI and
saying one is 'bad' isn`t a healthy argument in
itself.
The day the OSS community
understands that programmers are PATHETIC at UI
design and usability,
then MS will have a concrete threat (I'm a programmer
by the way...:-)
As I had said above when it comes to CUIs, try to
conduct a honest survey amidst programmers, the CUIs
in Unix/Linux are the best. When u talk abt GUIs - Pls
read the previous paragraph abt the concept of GUIs.
When trying to compare CUIs the OSS community has
hardly had a threat from MS and I doubt if they have
ever considered MS as a so-called 'threat'. When
talking abt GUIs, that was what stood between Unix
entering personal desktops - Anyway, Linux made the
difference.
As for the 'costs' factor, I'm a bit confused here.
I thought I knew my
GNU manifesto pretty well..whatever happened to 'free
as in speech and
not free as in beer'? If OSS says that all their
software has to be
free(as in beer),people like IBM and Sun (so called
friends of OSS)
would run away screaming. Are you saying that the
only way Linux is
better than Windows to the 'lay-man user' is because
it is cheaper?
But considering that he is a person worried about
costs, think again!! Ok, let`s keep aside cost for
time.
I have very clearly mentioned only one statement
talking abt costs and I didn`t go too much into it.
But there was one more post in the group abt trying to
migrate to some other hardware just to run ur OS and
getting the best out of existing hardware. The factors
involving hardware use in MS and Linux is very clearly
elucidated there. Kindly refer to that, it has been
CCed to you too!!
If OSS says that all their software has to be
free(as in beer),people like IBM and Sun (so called
friends of OSS)
would run away screaming.
Let`s take the example of charges for certain editions
of Linux. The distros too do not charge for the OS but
for tech support and the service charges. Try
downloading all programmes required to run Linux and
try compiling and executing them to be written onto
the boot loader. What the distros do is do that work
for you and provide tech support.
I think IBM and Sun know better abt this than both of
us do - They r talking abt freedom to tweak with ur
code and not free, like the bit notices we get when
going to Home-Life exhibitions. They are not giving
free(as in beer and bit notices) distributions but
free(as in sspeech) distributions.
What .NET does give you is freedom. Freedom to
oncentrate on your
problem at hand rather than where that pesky memory
leak is from.
Freedom to worry about what happens when the user
clicks the button
rather than wiring up the callback functions
properly. Freedom to
convert seamlessly from a huge array of data sources
and do some
amazingly cool stuff with them (e.g databinding in
ASP.NET). Freedom to
think about what your app should do rather than how
you can coax your
computer to do what your app wants to do.
But never have we felt the need for source
code...the wealth of documentation that is out there
in MSDN as well as
Google is more than sufficient .
For this category of 'Engineers' source code is not
luxury but a basic requirement, developing it or
using it is absolutely upto the skill level of the
engineer or anjaneyar using it. The 'freedom' as in
speech is
compulsory.
My argument abt 'giving everything' was in reply to
your statement abt the 'wealth of documentation in
MSDN' and not abt 'problem at hand' stuff. Freedom is
what is the maximum you can do as a programmer and not
the maximum you can do with .NET alone. You feel
having the source code as an Engineer it`s a luxury
but the whole of the OSS community and even the
programming world wud consider it as a requirement.
And
I feel that I know .NET well...I still haven't come
across anybody who
faces problems because of the lack of source code to
.NET. If I feel
that I can't get the job done due to the lack of some
tool, I'm more
than happy to pay him for his work and I respect his
right to keep his
trade secrets.
This is the easiest thing anybody can do!! The whole
point is abt doing things by yourself, if you can. An
engineer is a person who does things by himself in the
truest sense with integrity. "Trade secrets",etc, come
later.
I really don't think I want to spend
my life debugging other people's code...I want to
write the next Google,
the next Feedster, the next ICQ...I want to become
rich like Bill
Gates...not spend my time debugging soembody else's
memory management
code...when I'm neither getting paid for it nor am I
getting any fame
out of it. Hobbyist programming we all do and
enjoy...but in the end,
it's not viable as a full time profession(unless
you're as good as Linus
or RMS). Who's gonna get you the money to pay the
rent and buy that
shiny new car?
By debugging other`s code u can see what`s essentially
wrong, what is right, what can be done!!
Anyway OSS programmer are not debuggers. They dont get
error reports and debug their previous versions and
re-release them under a new 'jilpans' name.
All people in the OSS community are rightly credited
and they r as famous as the tool they have developed
or contributed to. They get their due share of name
and fame and r not unpaid programmers. They get their
share of fame and are paid well.
Getting ur shiny new car is about being able to
contribute so much to create an improvisation so that
u get ur car faster than an OSS programmer. Everybody
is going to get a car anyway, being able to do it fast
is what is required(unless otherwise).
Kernel developers(debuggers, as u wud call them as)
can get themselves shiny new cars faster than most
others. If u can do something radical enough to be
called a 'contribution' send it to the OSS community,
u will get ur name-fame and if it`s good enough - ur
shiny new car. It is ur skill that will get u
anywhere!!
Hobbyist programming we all do and enjoy...but in
the end,
it's not viable as a full time profession(unless
you're as good as Linus
or RMS).
OSS programmer are not people in Tirumala Tirupathi
Devasthanam who do honorary work - they r very much
programmers who program every day for their daily
bread. Linus and RMS aren`t the only ones who r paid,
people working on OSS projects are well paid. As u
said hobby programmers, need not be paid, but will get
their due credit.
Linus was very much like that - he didnt develop an OS
because somebody was waiting with keys to a shiny new
car or to appear in TIME magazine cover, or to counter
MS. But that became his profession of releasing
kernels and trying pack more punch into his OS.
The one that asks you whetheryou want to report it to
Microsoft. Ever wondered what they
Did with all that data....let me tell you what they
do. Right now, they've collected
several terabytes (yes..terabytes) of data from that
error reporting
service. And you know what they've found? That most
crashes comes from
apps not written by Microsoft. Bad device drives. Bad
plug-ins. Software
that tries to write to files it doesn't have
permission for.
What r they going to do with the several TBs of errors
resulting due to OS problems? Trying to say Win is
error-free wud be a big joke!! Linux handles almost
all such things u have mentioned with a simple msg
which prevents u from carrying on further than let the
whole platform on which all the applications r resting
to crash and having to do the 'holy' act of restarting
the system.
When you say "the user can get his job done without
hassles in Linux" ,
what exactly do you mean? Tell you what, let's have a
race...I'll use my
WinXp box and you take a distro of your choice. I'll
pull out my
digicam, web cam , USB drive ,portable MP3 player,
iPod....let's see
who's able to use them first. Or is it unthinkable
that Linux users will
want to listen to music and see pictures that they
have taken?
The outcome of the race will be determined by how well
we know our operating systems than the OS in itself.
If I lose it does not mean Linux is hopeless or vice
versa - it will just show that we have not been able
to use our OS effectively. Well, dont talk abt
hardware meant for proprietary Windows that take time
to get working in Linux with additional plugins!! If
ur talking abt Linux/Windows compatible hardware I
only see myself restarting services and running Kudzu
and then than restarting the whole system one million
times!!
Anyway we can have a race, maybe I can get my job done
before restarting ur system, and as I had said not
with hardwares which provide windows compatibility CD.
Or is it unthinkable that Linux users will
want to listen to music and see pictures that they
have taken?
Haven`t u heard of XMMS with mp3 plugin and the
so-many picture seeing and processing tools in Linux?
Well, now you know :-) Microsoft has a deep
relationship with a lot of
universities. In fact a lot of universities
(including some of the
Indian IITs, I hear) have full access to Windows
Source code. In fact,
the recent Windows code leak came from Mainsoft
(which runs Linux
servers btw :-) )
Well universities have them, fine!!What abt you and
me, the programming community? The Godforsaken code
had to be leaked and not given out fairly to the
programming community. This seems to prove the point.
My original argument was that you don't need access
to source code to be
efficient or to innovate
When I say innovation I very specifically mean what
lies beyond the available domain. What can you do with
Windows if u want to add a feature to it? What can u
do with .NET if u want to add a functionality to it?
Mail Bill gates?? I`m not talking abt implementing
what lies within your maximum limits such as .NET
dcomunentation or MSDN which might help you add new
things. But let`s say u have a new concept which u
might atleast try to implement, u cant even try that
in MS. MS talks about the dome of St.Paul`s cathedral
and says u can do anything in it, but I`m talking abt
the world that lies outside St.Paul`s dome. You r
fascinated by the biggest dome, but the argument
against MS is that there is a well-defined limit
within which u can 'innovate'.
As an Engineer and a developer access to source code
is a must, and as I had clearly said in my previous
mail - "developing it or using it is absolutely upto
the skill level of the engineer or anjaneyar using it.
" Maybe u have never needed it, there are people who
need it and who r constantly working on it.
Hmm...do you really need access to the source code to
type out a
OpenOffice document. Or does my mom need access to
Photoshop's source
code to touch up a few photos?
U r repeatedly trying to compare the skill level of
the users to use the code or not. U r mom does not
need source code, but as an Engineer u 'might' want it
if u really believe in improvising. Okay let`s take
the example of a person who has a really good thing to
improvise upon, as one of our fellow luggians said -
trying to meddle with the lens filter in Adobe
photoshop - wud u be able to do it? In the OSS
community he wud be given his due credit!! But in the
MS world his suggestion(error report) wud be taken and
incorporated(not sure) and somebody else takes credit
and gets name,fame and shiny new cars.
Err....that's why a majority of the Fortune 500
companies run Windows ,
is it? :-) Seriously, do back up your statements with
benchmarks.
Well, I sure presume you know that most of them r
migrating to Linux and in this process a new field
called migration technology has emerged. If u have
people doing it as a regular professional job, then
just imagine the sheer extent to which actual
migration is happening. Well, in simple terms ur
talking abt history and I`m talking abt the future.
Ok, the point I'm trying to make here is that a
debate on Linux vs
Windows is pointless.
I shud infact thank you for the "Are you serious?"
thread that u had started. A very good quality
argument from all fellow Luggians has come out which
has undoubtedly been trying to prove things as they
are and not as how you and I percieve it to be.'
This is not something which you and I can end, it will
go on and has been going on for quite a long time,
ever since Linus sent his first mail about the OS code
which he had developed from Minix. Trying to say that
this argument is 'pointless' is comical and conveying
the msg that they have diff target audience is
baseless. You , me, our fellow Luggians and the
programming community is the target audience.
Windows has a different target audience...Linux
has a different target audience.
What do you think? OSs are not tamil/bollywood movies
which are made for village subject,city subject,etc,.
They r meant for the world. I don`t really understand
what u mean to say by the word "target audience".
C`mon wake up!! You, me and whoever reads this mail in
their computers are the target audience.
Let's say that Microsoft
suddenly ceases to exist one day....then what
happens. Who are you gonna
target next? Apple?
The only thing that
irritates me about the OSS community is their
perpetual obsession with
Windows and MS.
OSS is not against MS company and Bill gates` fortune,
it`s against the "MS policies" which does not allow a
user/programmer to do what he wants. Well, that just
sums up 'our' OSS policy.
Do understand that Microsoft has a huge bunch of very
talented people
who produce some great software. You want to impress
me..do so with
software.
I very honestly accept that MS has great programmers
and also moth eaten company policies!! But be
magnanimous enough to accept that the OSS programmers
are also 'great' programmers and not 'debuggers' as u
had said.
You want to impress me..do so with
software. Make Linux do stuff that Windows cannot do.
Make OpenOffice do
stuff that would kick MS Office's behind. Make
FireFox so good that you
give the IE team in Redmond sleepless nights. Forget
about the
MS-bashing...its just a huge waste of everyone's
time.
The point is the OSS community impressing the world
with quality software which is already doing the
'kicking' activities as u have mentioned above, or
else nobody wud be migrating to Linux and have Linux
project test labs which produce amazing results.
It is only bcos somebody has not been content with the
performance, a migration to Linux has come out and
that has wlays been succesful. Tell me one company
which has reverse migrated bcos it hasnt found the
performance of Linux/OSS satisfactory!! But as for all
the other migrating stories, u`ll be hearing it all
over!!
We r trying to compare the pros and cons of things and
not bashing,thrashing,trolling,flaming.........
Anyway this has definitely been a good quality
argument where newbies have come to know so many
things!! Honestly speaking, I myself got a good
comparison of MS and OSS due to the so-many posts
trying to give the correct picture.
S.N.Sudharsan,
B.E.(Cse), RHCE(RH-9),
Velammal engineering college,
Chennai.
________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! India Insurance Special: Be informed on the best policies, services,
tools and more.
Go to:
http://in.insurance.yahoo.com/licspecial/index.html
Other related posts:
