[ibis-macro] Re: Mea Culpa, my critique of the Crosstalk BIRD last week was incorrect.
- From: "Muranyi, Arpad" <Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 10:20:37 -0800
Scott,
This is a bigger and more general topic regarding AMI. We
currently process difference signals only, period. I see
this issue surfacing more and more in various shapes and
forms. I think it is a valid concern, but considering that
currently we are trying to get the problems fixed in v5.0
which are more like errors in the specification, I would
suggest that we should put this bigger topic on hold and
discuss it as a new feature for a later version of IBIS
because this looks like a bigger overhaul to me.
The cross talk discussion we are having now was triggered by
a sentence in the v5.0 specification which stated that the
Init functions should not modify anything but the primary
channel's IR, which was a questionable statement (pg. 185):
What do you think?
Thanks,
Arpad
=============================================================
From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Scott McMorrow
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:02 PM
To: ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Mea Culpa, my critique of the Crosstalk BIRD
last week was incorrect.
Only differential mode crosstalk is considered with this scheme.
Does anyone else beside myself see a problem with this?
Since other noise sources can be included in an analog model, such as
power system or termination noise as additional ports to the analog
model, how would additional common mode noise sources (such as power
system noise) be included in this processing model? It seems to me that
to be complete you may need to contemplate including SDC terms in
addition to the SDD terms.
There is an additional question in my mind of where driver skew is
included. If the Analog model fully encapsulates the driver, then for
each potential differential skew being simulated, a different analog
model needs to be generated. However, since the analog model is minimum
of a 4-port, if the analog model is constructed correctly, small
percentages of differential skew can be moved outside of the model for
convenience. In that case, the skew being modeled must be added to the
end-to-end channel model prior to extraction of the individual Sdd
transfer functions for crosstalk processing.
Scott
Scott McMorrow
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
121 North River Drive
Narragansett, RI 02882
(401) 284-1827 Business
(401) 284-1840 Fax
http://www.teraspeed.com
Teraspeed(r) is the registered service mark of
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
On 3/8/2011 11:59 AM, Walter Katz wrote:
Ambrish,
You are correct. Read once, send three times. Here is a corrected
version.
Walter
From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [
mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ambrish Varma
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 11:48 AM
To: 'IBIS-ATM'
Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Mea Culpa, my critique of the Crosstalk BIRD
last week was incorrect.
Hi Walter,
If I am not wrong, there is a slight problem with your example.
Instead of
"The impulse matrix to input RxV is
SDD(RxV,TxV)' SDD(RxV,Tx1)' SDD(Rx2,Tx2)'
The impulse response output of RxV is
SDD(RxV,TxV)'' SDD(RxV,Tx1)'' SDD(Rx2,Tx2)'' (All three include RxV
filter)"
Shouldn't it be:
"The impulse matrix to input RxV is
SDD(RxV,TxV)' SDD(RxV,Tx1)' SDD(RxV,Tx2)'
The impulse response output of RxV is
SDD(RxV,TxV)'' SDD(RxV,Tx1)'' SDD(RxV,Tx2)'' (All three include RxV
filter)"
Thanks,
-Ambrish.
Ambrish Varma | Member of Consulting Staff
P: 978.262.6431 www.cadence.com <http://www.cadence.com>
________________________________
From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [
mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Walter Katz
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 10:53 AM
To: Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx; 'IBIS-ATM'
Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Mea Culpa, my critique of the Crosstalk BIRD
last week was incorrect.
Arpad,
Here it is again, one page, and some minor modifications. I do not care
if this example is in the BIRD, a reference in the minutes is sufficient
for me, but I have no objection if it is included. I think a request was
mad for a graohic example, as opposed to a mathematical example.
Walter
From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [
mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 10:39 AM
To: IBIS-ATM
Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Mea Culpa, my critique of the Crosstalk BIRD
last week was incorrect.
Walter,
Is the 2nd page "left intentionally blank" in the PDF you
sent in the attachment? If so, would you mind removing it
and send it to us again so we could post a single page
document? Did you want this example in the BIRD also (and
ultimately in the spec)? Someone suggested in the previous
meetings that examples would be good, but I don't remember
for which BIRD it was suggested.
Thanks,
Arpad
============================================================
From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [
mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Walter Katz
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 8:59 AM
To: IBIS-ATM
Subject: [ibis-macro] Mea Culpa, my critique of the Crosstalk BIRD last
week was incorrect.
All,
Mea Culpa, my critique of the Crosstalk BIRD last week was incorrect.
After a careful read I totally agree with the contents of the BIRD and
would support a motion to submit it to the Open Forum, with this
committees concurrence.
Not for Naught!
I did document an example of a coupled system containing a single victim
channel and two aggressor channels. The various elements of the Impulse
Response are defined using Touchstone notation, and the input and output
of the impulse response matrix for each Tx and Rx AMI_Init function call
is defined by rows and columns in the differential mode, coupled sNp
that represents any coupled channel.
I would like this document posted, and I would like the weekly minutes
to note it.
Walter
Walter Katz
wkatz@xxxxxxxxxx
Phone 303.449-2308
Mobile 303.883-2120
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