Phil, I in blue.... ----- Original Message ---- From: philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 4:26:22 PM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: acceleration calcs Yes, but then why would you want to attempt to measure that aspect of earth's supposed orbital motion anyway? We are only looking for changes in acceleration not absolute values of velocity ?????.. Allen But Allen I do not understand your meaning here. When you say changes of acceleration you must mean like as in from 32 Ft. per sec per sec. to say 33ft. per sec per sec. yes But in an orbital situation, I asked the question that concerned acceleration at constant velocity, that is no change of velocity. I know I was in part piggy backing ..........but for good reason ;-)... my point was that description does not describe the earth's orbit at all because the acceleration rate must change. The calcs we provided were only the average or mean acceleration rate not the constant rate. The earth's orbit demands changes in acceleration rates and that is what we are looking for and that is what can be measured and what we should expect to be measured. This is part of my thesis for why acceleration and gravity are not one and the same thing....gyroscopes operate primarily on the gravitational forces within any given gravitational field where acceleration is a change only wrt the ARF. My arguments are pointing to the fact that even though the gyroscope may not be able to detect a translational motion of a body the acceleration rate of that same body and in fact any motion of any body period can and is detected even within the earth's gravitational field. Is it not possible to have constant acceleration (no change) with a variation in velocity and angular deviation in combination ? yes .....It could be possible. however, my point is that in earth's supposed orbit of the sun, the acceleration rate not just the velocity must change....because the velocity over varing distance changes wrt equal time....the key is equal time......If it were not equal time then we could detect the earth's orbital motion observably wrt the stars for sure then. That by definition demands a change in the rate of acceleration not just a change in the earth's velocity. agian, the calcs we gave are only avg of the orbit, it is not a constent acceleration rate the rate must constantly change. Philip. ----- Original Message ----- From: allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 7:53 AM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: acceleration calcs We cannot measure translations with a gyroscope, whether accelerated or not." Regner. Yes, but then why would you want to attempt to measure that aspect of earth's supposed orbital motion anyway? We are only looking for changes in acceleration not absolute values of velocity ?????...The question before us is can we detect absolute velocity... not invoke as proof for something the very thing that is in question!? ......As a side issue on the other hand as it would relate to gyroscopic motions, the earth also supposedly spin's......we can measure gyroscopic motions of free falling objects within earths inertial gravitational field and the earth is in the sun's presumably free falling....... attempts were made to measure that....guess what ..they can and do measure a motion equivilent to earth's sidreal period (daily) but detected absolutly none for it's annual!......ummmmmmmmmm To summarize: * You cannot measure absolute velocity - or more importantly it doesn't matter to physics. That is incorrect, it is only not important to GR's version of physics but that is what is in question....? That statement is only true if you assume GR is true first but when you do that then you cannot ever claim to be able to falsify the very thing you use to interpret the data with!? The problem is with inertial reference frames the fact that HC has the earth in a translational orbit is irrelevant for what is in question in this discussion. You can measure absolute acceleration. That is all we would want to measure the annual changes............. but that has failed at every attempt in science even though the sidereal period has been consistently detectable for the last 100+ years...ummmmm This is in part the importaince of the questions 1. can absolute velocity be measured? how do we know?..by vertue of a very theory that we must use in order to make such a determintion? That is not validating the tehory that is using the theory to determine the conclusion!? 2. is grav and inertia the same? how do we know? You cant envoke the very theory that claims to be falsifiable as proof for it's own conclusions or the beachmark for evaluating/ interpriting the data in.....!? My aggression is not to GR my aggresion is the method of its application/ evaluation. Our proof is both direct and indirect we identify the two basic posibilities absolute motion v not absolute motion and eliminate the looser but we cannot use the conclusions of one theory to base the data interpritaions on. we do have to accept the observations at face value untill such time as they are shown external of a circular falicy that they are something else. ----- Original Message ---- From: philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 1:30:09 PM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: acceleration calcs "We cannot measure translations with a gyroscope, whether accelerated or not." Regner. Of course! I should be ashamed for not applying what I knew from experience, and my recent grasp of the term translation. In a two body system excluding all other reference points, there seems to be know way of feeling "detecting" which body is moving around which except by the logic of known physics as regards the influence of gravity and centrepetal force. Experimental proof would need to be obtained of the relative masses of the bodies, which of course has been done betwen the sun and the earth. There is no way anyone can claim the sun is some light airy gas ball. Thanks Regner. Philip. ----- Original Message ----- From: Regner Trampedach To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 4:25 PM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: acceleration calcs Regner's reply to Philip's in blue... philip madsen wrote: Regner said. "Eh, no! We can still measure our position/velocity relative to the stars. Then it is a matter of conviction, I guess, whether you believe the whole Universe to be moving that way, or just the Earth." Regner my words were not phrased too well. What I meant by certainty was that there is no absolute way of knowing or finding a spot with absolutely NO MOTION. You can relate movement between the stars, and the earth. but motion (constant velocity no acceleration ) as such in isolated space cannot be detected. To summarize: * You cannot measure absolute velocity - or more importantly it doesn't matter to physics. * You can measure absolute acceleration. You also responded with, "Eh, they do. You don't need more than that - you just integrate once over time to get velocity, and twice to get position. [ I do not follow. What device can detect motion movement and velocity, except with respect to other bodies, such as the stars, whose own movements as a whole, can only be assumed. ] If you get your velocities from integration over acceleration, there is still an integration constant which is undetermined - which means you still don't have an absolute velocity. But they won't detect acceleration of an object free-falling in a gravitational field. We both argued for that..." [ yes, and therefore I have confused myself. I had always assumed that a gyroscope in a satellite would show the curved motion . Just as I expect one to show the fall of the earth around the sun???? Could you please explain this for us. A gyroscope keeps it's orientation in space - therefore we can measure rotations. We cannot measure translations with a gyroscope, whether accelerated or not. ...Unless, of course, you use the gyroscope in a manner akin to this: How to measure the height of a building using a barometer Regner Philip. Philip. ----- Original Message ----- From: Regner Trampedach To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 1:08 PM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: acceleration calcs philip madsen wrote: The truck drives along a turn in the road. * A ball is dropped from the ceiling of the container. Thanks Regner.. I now glean what is meant by the "fiction".. Actually we had discussed the falling ball in a transparant railway carriage passing a station a few times here on this list. I just missed the connection as regards the "fiction" of observation. I am glad that clarified it. You make a good case for it being impossible for anybody to establish absolute certainty for any position or movement in space. (we've been here before as well) Eh, no! We can still measure our position/velocity relative to the stars. Then it is a matter of conviction, I guess, whether you believe the whole Universe to be moving that way, or just the Earth. But apart from that, you are right that there is no "absolute certainty" in the world of science. Its claimed inertial devices will detect acceleration. but that is only part of motion... Eh, they do. You don't need more than that - you just integrate once over time to get velocity, and twice to get position. But they won't detect acceleration of an object free-falling in a gravitational field. We both argued for that... Regner Philip. ----- Original Message ----- From: Regner Trampedach To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:10 PM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: acceleration calcs Exactly, Philip. The Earth, and we with it, are in free fall around the Sun, with the gravitational acceleration by the Sun (and towards the Sun) keeping us in our elliptic orbit. Without careful analysis, I actually thought that you might be able to detect it, but you are right, Philip. This is also stated in Einsteins equivalence principle which states that a free-falling reference frame is an inertial reference frame, and there will therefore be no fictitious forces (centrifugal-, Coriolis- and Euler-forces). The equivalence principle means that the orbit of Earth can just as well be seen as the Earth traveling along a straight line in a curved space - the two are equivalent - and the latter is described by general relativity. As a partial reply to your (much) earlier post on pseudo forces, I will note a few facts on them here - and there is nothing dubious about them. Pseudo forces, more often called fictitious forces, arise when your reference frame is being accelerated. Let's say you set up a laboratory inside a container on a trailer truck. * The truck drives along a turn in the road. * A ball is dropped from the ceiling of the container. Imagine the container turning transparent, so that your colleague can record the trajectory of the ball, as seen from the roadside * your colleague will see the ball follow a parabola determined by the speed of the truck when the ball was released, and the local acceleration of gravity. Only one force, gravity, acts on the ball: F_obs = F_grav. * You, however, will see the ball being acted upon by another force, since the ball (and you...) will be accelerated towards the side of the container: F_obs = F_grav + F_fict This force is entirely due to the truck accelerating iin the opposite direction, towards the inside of the bend in the road, and we call it a fictive force. Fictive forces are trivial (but often cumbersome) to derive as the opposite of the acceleration of your (non-interial) reference frame. Regards, Regner philip madsen wrote: re Alan and Regners figures. On this business of "feeling" acceleration, whilst I do not pretend to having had enough interest in checking the figures, I still reason that its a matter of how forces are applied, as to whether you feel anything. In a suddenly braking car you get flung forward... because the force is at the wheels.. But if the breaking force was applied to every molecule of the vehicle including you, then I concieve no effect to be "felt" If I take the orbiting space station as an example, the people inside and even ouside are all exposed to the same accelerating forces.. They follow the orbit of the vehicle.. when the man steps outside, he does not get flung off on a merry plunge towards the sun or the earth for that matter. He would not "feel" any movement. Yet he is circling the earth every few hours. Thats travelling a fast corner. Philip. ----- Original Message ----- From: Regner Trampedach To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:59 PM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: acceleration calcs Alan, Thanks for your calculation, but I'm afraid you made a mistake - it's easy to do with all those crazy units Americans juggle with. You forget that your velocities are still per hour, while you have the change of velocity per second, so your result is actually: (1) 11.43 cm/(hour*s) = 0.003175 cm/s2 (cm per second squared) The actual change is: (2) (30.29e5 cm/s - 29.29e5 cm/s) / (year/2d0) = 0.006338 cm/s2 We agree on the velocities and the difference in velocity - I just use centimeter-gram-second (cgs) units. One year is 365.26 days * 24 hours/day * 3600 s/hour = 3.155693e7 s. The change happens during half a year (I divide year by 2, in Eq. [2]) so you would actually have underestimated the change (as you can see from my correction, Eq. [1]). It is always a good idea to put your result in perspective by comparing with another relevant quantity - the gravitational acceleration at the surface of Earth is about g=9.8 m/s2 on average, which means that the acceleration along Earth's orbit is (3) (0.006338 cm/s2) / (980 cm/s2) = 0.000006467 times the average gravitational acceleration at the surface of Earth, g. or conversely, the acceleration along Earth's orbit is 154600 times smaller than g. I don't think you would notice that! But that is obviously a tiny component of the accelerations actually involved. Remember that (in HC) the direction of the velocity has also changed over the 6 months and the velocities in the two instances will be exactly opposite. We can get a rough estimate of that acceleration by just adding the two velocities in Eq. (2), since a-(-b) = a+b, to get: (4) (30.29e5 cm/s + 29.29e5 cm/s) / (year/2d0) = 0.3776 cm/s2 which is then 2595 times smaller than g. Absolutely measurable, but it wouldn't exactly knock you over. Regner allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote: Try to move 4.5 inches within one sec without feeling/ (being abel to detect that using current technology) it. This demonstrates the crux of the problem with earths inertial motion. Appealing to some imaginary reason why you could not detect it in the earth but you could with anything and everything else is not going to work untill you can first prove that your imaginary reason exist in reality. NO one isarguing it could be, but if we are to arive at a conclusion and proclaim it logical we have to prove the variables along the way not make them up as we go along. that is the fundimental difference between GC & HC. GC accepts as proof only the effidence presented as it goes along through the discovery process.....HC makes it up as it goes along to save it's conclusions..... ----- Original Message ---- From: Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 8:38:51 AM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: acceleration calcs Here it is ..quick & rough.... 18.5 miles per second average speed * 60 sec for min * 60 min for MPH = 66600MPH or The ~ avg change over the course of a year is 3.4%* 66600= 2264.4 / 365.4 days=6.2038 MPH per day /24 hours = .25840166 MPH change per hour /60min=.00430819444 MPH change per min ……There are 5,280 feet in a mile .0043081944 MPH = 22.747266432 feet ( or 6.933366807864 meters) per min /60 to convert to seconds = .3791 feet per sec/ per second change ( or .11554968 meters per sec per sec). This is a change in velocity of ~4.5 inches per sec/ per sec Or 11.43 centimeters per sec per second There is now way to consider this amount to be inertial change negligible. The effect rate of change regardless of how fast the earth is supposed to be traveling because only the rate of any change from the effective inertail 0 is measured. This means that the velocity change of the earth going around the sun is not just moving 4.5 inches ever second but changing by 4.5 inches per sec. During the earths closest approach to the sun (such as traveling in a moving car)if we experience 0 velocity change because we are traveling with the earth then whatever the current velocity is would be felt as 0. However, the rate of change just as in a moving vehicle would be changed if we "give it some gas" and in this case the rate of change would be a increase ~4.5 inches every sec every sec. This is to say we on second one we increase by 4.5 sec on second two we have increased to 9 by second three we have increased to 13.5….the rate makes for a exponential distance traveled curve. In any case this is the rate of change. Assume for the sake of argument that your body could not detect that change rate, current instrumentation however ( acelerometers) are able to detect that amount of inertial change to almost infinite amounts, and they are not "aetheraly" depemdent). Neville Jones <njones@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: Not me. -----Original Message----- From: allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 07:55:05 -0800 (PST) Since the earth changes its speed throught it's orbit, has anyone out there ever calculated the actual acceleration force changes to the earth as it moves back and fourth through its apogee and perigee elliptical orbit around the sun? Free 3D Marine Aquarium Screensaver Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop! 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