Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 8:47
PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Malleus
Maleficarum
Dear Jack,
Your bible does not have, "I am going now to my
father and your father, to my God and your God" in it?
Which
bible is that, then?
Dear Neville,
I'm sorry I have taken a while to reply to your
posting but I had problems loading my Bible program onto my new
computer.
In answer to your question above, The New King
James Bible Jn 20:17 which of course you already knew.
I understand perfectly why you asked this
question because on the face of it it would appear that Jesus cannot
be God. However you have taken this scripture completely out of Biblical
context with no reference to other scriptures that would
overwhelmingly support the doctrine of the Trinity. As I have said in
previous postings I can only quote from a Bible, that most of
which, you have rejected.
If God is who He says He is in the scriptures
then we must conclude that there are aspects of His being that are beyond
the grasp of human reasoning. If we were able to 'understand God, then He
would not be God and we would.
This is stated in Isa 55:8-9
For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor
are your ways My ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than
the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your
thoughts.
Below are a number of scriptures that will
confirm the existence of the Trinity.
There are six possible permutations stating the
three persons of the Trinity in the N.T.
Father, Son, Spirit - Mat 28:19 and Jn
5:7
Father, Spirit, Son - 1 Pet 1:2; Tit 3:4-6;
Eph 3:14-17; Rom 5:5-6; Rev 1:4-5
Son, Spirit, Father - Heb 9:14; 1Cor 6:11; Eph
2:18
Son, Father, Spirit - 2Cor 13-14; Jn 14-16; 1Pet
3:18
Spirit, Father, Son, - 1Cor 12:4-6; Eph
4:4-6
Spirit, Son, Father - Jude 20-21; Rom 8:9; Acts
7:55; Eph 5:18-20; 1Cor 12:4-6
Within a few verses of Gen 1:1 we find God
speaking in a plurality using plural pronouns.
Gen
1:26
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man
in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the
fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all
the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
In Isa 6:8 the phrase '...who will go for Us'
some people consider that 'Us' it is reference to God and
angels which might be remotely possible but it is definitely not an
acceptable way of handling the use of the personal pronoun in Gen
1:26.
Gen 3:22
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know
good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree
of life, and eat, and live forever”—
7 Come, let Us go down and there
confuse their language, that they may not understand one anothers speech.”
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
Ask yourself this question,
"Of whom does this refer?"
Rev 1:17-18
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His
feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I
am He who lives,
and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
Now ask yourself the same
question about this scripture.
Rev 22:12-16
12 “And
behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to
give to every one according to his work.
13 I am the
Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and
the End, the First
and the Last.”
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,
that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through
the gates into the city.
15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually
immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a
lie.
16 “I,
Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.
I am the Root and the
Offspring of David, the
Bright and Morning Star.”
For further clarification read Rev
22:20
Rev 22:20
20 He who testifies to these things
says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus
Christ be with you
all. Amen.
In Rev 1:17-18 Jesus refers to Himself as, 'the
First and the Last'...'He who lives and was dead,' this explains the
meaning of, 'I am the Alpha and the Omega', "The Beginning and the End"
and "The First and the Last".
Now look at Is 44:6, 48:12 and asks yourself
again, "Of whom does this refer?"
Is 44:6
6 “Thus says the Lord, the
King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.
Is 48:12
12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My
called: I am He, I am the First, I am
also the Last.
Rev 1:8 connects Jesus with
God, not only that but 'Lord God' (NIV).
Rev 1:8
8 “I am the
Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come,
the Almighty.”
In Rev 21:6 'The one who sits on the Throne,
according to Rev 4, is a reference to God Himself and also a similar
description to Jesus in the first and last chapters.
Rev 21:6
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I
am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the
fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
Those who think that Jesus
was created being should consider rather than eternally
existing:
Mic 5:2
2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the
thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The
One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth
are from of old,
From everlasting.”
Mat
2:5-6
5 So they said to him, “In
Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it is written by the prophet:
6 ‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, Are not the least among the rulers of Judah;
For out of you shall come a Ruler
Who will shepherd My people Israel.’
”
Followed by:
Mat 1: 22-23
22 So all this was done that it
might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet,
saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall
call His name Immanuel,” which is translated,
“God with us.”
Greek scholars are united in
the understanding that the use of the imperfect tense in Jn 1:1
Jn 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
indicates a 'timeless
existence' of the Word
(Jesus).
Col 1:15-16 implies that Jesus created 'all
things'.
Col 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible
God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were
created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible,
whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were
created through Him and for Him.
In Is 6:1-13 It is not difficult to see that the
person Isaiah saw was God (Jehovah). However in verse 8 God asks Isaiah
"Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?"
Who is the 'Us' God was referring
to?
In Jn 12:41 he tells exactly who Isaiah
saw.
Jn 12:41
41 These things Isaiah said when he
saw His glory and spoke of Him.
Is 40:3 is talking about John the Baptist making
way for the LORD (Jehovah) and confirmed in Mat 3:3.
Is 40:3
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.
3 For this is he who was spoken of
by the prophet Isaiah, saying: “The voice of
one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the
way of the Lord; Make His paths straight.’
”
The Jews considered that Jn 10:28 was a
blasphemous statement
Jn 10;28
28 And I
give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone
snatch them out of My hand.
But His right to say it is followed in Jn
10:29-30.
Jn 10:29-30.
29 My
Father, who has given
them to Me, is
greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
30 I and
My Father are
one.”
Followed by action from the Jews in:
Jn 10:31
31 Then the Jews took up stones
again to stone Him.
Ps 45:6-7 shows God portrayed as addressing the
Son (Jesus) and makes the statement "Your throne, O God".
Ps 45:6-7
6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Your
kingdom.
The writer of Heb 1:8-13
quotes from Ps 45:6-7, Ps 102:25-27 and Ps 110:1 and shows that ElOHIM,
JEHOVAH and ADONAI are also Jesus.
Finally if more proof is needed;
1 In Philip 2:9-11 "the name
that is above every name" is Lord (Jehovah)
2 In Rom 10:9-13 the word 'For'
links these verses closely together thus the 'Lord' of verse 13 must be
the 'Lord' of 9 and 12.
3 In Heb 1:10 God address the
Son as 'Lord' in a quote from Ps 102:25 compared with Ps 102:24 where the
person addressed is called God.
4 In 1Pet 2:3-4 is almost an
exact quote from Ps 34:8 where 'Lord' is Jehovah and from 1Pet 2:4-8, the
'Lord' in verse 3 is Jesus.
5 In 1 Pet 3:14-15 is a clear
reference to Isa 8:12-13, where the one who is regarded as 'hallow'
is Jehovah.
6 In 1Cor 8:6 and Eph 4:5, it
is Jesus who is spoken of as 'one Lord'. Compare this with Rom 10:12, 1Cor
12:5, Deu 6:4 and Mark 12:29.
You will see from this that the O.T. and the
N.T., as well as separately, are linked together by a Trinitarian
doctrine.
You have to ask yourself Neville why you do not
see it? Just because a blind man cannot see a picture on a wall does not
mean that it is not there.
Is 6:9-10,
9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 “Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their
eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And
understand with their heart, And return and be
healed.”
Jn 12:39-40,
39 Therefore they could not believe,
because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has
blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their
eyes, Lest they
should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
37 But although He had done so many
signs before them, they did not believe in Him,
38 that the word of Isaiah the
prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: “Lord,
who has believed our report? And to whom has
the arm of the Lord
been revealed?”
The only other excuse you have for rejecting the
Trinity, apart from that immediately above, would be your wholesale
rejection of all the scriptures that confirm the Trinity.
regards
Jack
