[geocentrism] Re: Forsaken Roots
- From: "philip madsen" <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 09:08:13 +1000
Its only now that I noticed this unanswered Mail. I was looking for the other
one which essentially asked the same question. "Was the God of the Jews the
same God of the New testament." to which I vaguely remember giving a feeble
answer. You stated,
You have used a combination of your spirit and your intellect to discount
certain popes as being false, in doing that you have held fast to your belief
in the fundamentals of the Catholic Church. All I have done is use my spirit
and my intellect to reject large sections of the "Old Testament," in
particular, based solely upon my belief in God.
Actually this is not entirely true. We have almost 2000 years of historical
record in the church wherein a wealth of dogmatic principles have been laid
down in writing, to which the Bible is an important ajunct, but not a
necessity, since practically everything of import in the Bible is replicated
within what is called Sacred Tradition.
I must again reinforce the distinction between Sacred Tradition, which is
revealed truth, from mere customs or oral traditions, prayers etc. Revealed
Truth in Sacred Tradition can be nothing else but the direct word and teachings
of Jesus as handed down orally by Him directly to all of the apostles. After
the death of the last Apostle, nothing new can be ever added. When memory
lapses and churchmen created disputes occurred, the Holy spirit was invoked,
according to prescribed rules, and an official declaration finalised the
matter.
It does not require a great deal of intellect or even Spiritual guidance to be
able to discern when any man, Pope or Priest, violates or ignores or
contradicts these precepts. It does require that one knows the difference
between true obedience and blind obedience... which I suppose is related to
ones desire or interest in knowing truth.
"Was the God of the Jews the same God of the New testament."
Today I came across a concordance which sort of did the job much better than I
could have, from which I selected the pertinent Scriptual points.. the authors
requested a pre read of an article on the word "only" which I set at the top.
Sincerely , Philip.
Only
A few thoughts on the usage of this word
One of the most misused words in the bible is the word only. It is also the
word that contributes most to the vast differences in beliefs between
Christians and other sects. Catholics should be aware of how this word is
implied by people trying to use scripture for their own ends. Many times people
read a bible verse and the assumption is that the verse contains the word only.
Here are a few examples.
I often ask people why they believe the bible is the word of God, but not the
Church that gave us the bible. They quickly point to 2 Tim 3:16-17 which reads
"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation,
for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to
God may be competent, equipped for every good work." What surprises me is that
they claim this means "ONLY scripture is inspired by God.." This clever
insertion of the word only denies the historical truth that Jesus started a
Church with authority. A church St. Paul calls ". the pillar and foundation of
truth." (1 Tim 3:15) And a Church that handed down to us the bible.
Another, and maybe more tragic insertion of the word only was done by Martin
Luther when he took the phrase "saved by faith" and turned it into "saved by
faith ONLY". Most people are familiar with the term Sola Fide (faith alone). It
is here that salvation by faith turns into salvation by faith alone. In spite
of biblical evidence to the contrary, when scripture says we are saved by
faith, people insist on adding the word "only". The only time the phrase "faith
only" is used in the bible is in James 2:24 where he writes "See how a person
is justified by works and not by faith alone." The exact opposite of what
people want the bible to say.
Another misuse is in conjunction with the phrase "if you believe". People
insist on making it "if you ONLY believe". This of course means sin has no
consequence in spite of numerous biblical teaching to the contrary. End quote
On the God of the Bible.
Return to main concordance
GOD
God's Nature
Only one God. Deut 32:39; Is 43:10; 44:6-8; 45:5; Hos 13:4; Mal 2:10;
1Cor 8:6; Eph 4:6
God is Spirit. Jn 4:24; Cf. also 1Jn 4:8; for God is Love.
God is Creator Gen 1:1; Job 26:13; Ps 33:6; 148:5; Prov 8:22-31; Sirach
24:8; 2Mac 7:28; Jn 1:3; Col 1:16; Heb 11:3
Is unbounded 1 Kings 8:27; Jer 23:24; Acts 7:48-49
Is omnipresent Ps 139:7; Wis 1:7; Sirach 16:17-18; Jer 23:24; Amos 9:2-3;
Eph 1:23
Is omnipotent Gen 17:1; 28:3; 35:11; 43:14; Ex 6:3; Rev 1:8; 4:8; 11:17;
16:14; 21:22
God the Mighty Gen 49:24; Ps 24:8; 50:1; Is 10:21; Jer 32:18; 2 Mac 11:13
God is Merciful Ex 34:6; 2Chron 30:9; Ps 25:6; 51:1; Is 63:7; Lk 6:36;
Rom 11:32; Eph 2:4; Jas 5:11
Source of life and holiness Rom 6:23; Gal 6:8; Eph 1:4-5; 1Thess 4:3;
2Thess 2:13-17
Is Judge of the world 1Sam 2:10; 1Chron 16:33; Ezek 18:30; Mt 16:27;
Acts 17:31; Rom 2:16; 2Tim 4:1; 1Pet 4:5
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Holy Trinity
"Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the
Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the
substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son's is another, the Holy
Spirit's another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal" (Athanasian Creed).
Foreshadowing of plurality of Persons in OT Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7;
18:1-5; 9-10; 16
Action of Triune Godhead in New Testament Mt 3:16-17; Lk 1:35; 3:21-22
Plurality of Persons as mentioned in New Testament Jn 14:15; 26; 15:26;
Acts 1:6-8; Rom 8:9; 1Cor 6:10-11; Eph 4:4-6; 1Pet 1:2; 1Jn 5:6-7; Jude 20:21
Baptism given in name of Trinity Mt 28:19
Blessing given in name of Trinity 2Cor 13:14
Jesus Christ
Thomas answered and said to him, "My Lord and my God"
Son of God Mt 16:16; 26:63-64; 1Jn 4:15
Only begotten of Father Jn 1:14; 3:16; 18; 1Jn 4:9
Is Messiah (Greek: Christos) Is 7:14; 9:6; Jer 23:5; 30:9; Ezek 34:23;
Mic 5:2; Zech 9:9; (Cf) Jn 1:41; 4:25-26
Christ is true God Jn 1:1; 5:18; 8:58; 20:28; Phil 2:6; Col 1:15-19;
2:9; Tit 2:13
Christ is true Man (proved by his dying) Mt 26:38; 27:50; Mk 15:37; Lk
23:46; Jn 1:14; 19:30; Acts 2:22; 3:22; Phil 2:7; 1Tim 2:5; Heb 2:17; 1Jn 1:2
Called First and Last Is 41:4; 44:6; (Cf ) Rev 1:17; 2:8
Called Alpha and Omega Rev 1:8; 21:6; (Cf ) Rev 22:13-16
Is King of Kings Rev 1:5; (Cf ) Rev 17:14; 1Tim 1:17; (Cf ) Rev 15:3
Is Power and Wisdom of God 1Cor 1:24
Is the Glory of God 1Cor 2:8; Heb 1:3; Jas 2:1; Rev 21:23
Is Eternal Mic 5:2; Jn 1:1; Col 1:17; Heb 1:10
Is Omniscient Ps 139; (Cf ) Lk 6:8; Jn 6:64; 13:11; 16:13; 21:17
Is Unchangeable Mal 3:6; (Cf ) Heb 1:12; 13:8
Is Lord of all Acts 10:36; Rom 10:12
Death of Christ
Foretold in OT Ps 22:69; Wis 2:10-20; Is 1:5-6; 53; Jer 11:19; Lam 1:12;
Zech 1:12-13; (Cf ) Lk 24:46
For our Salvation Is 53:4-10; Mt 20:28; Lk 24:46; Jn 12:24; Rom 5; Eph
5:2; 1Pet 1:18; 2:24 1Jn 2:2; 1Thess 5:10
Resurrection of Christ
Foretold In OT Ps 16:10; (Cf ) Acts 13:35
Foretold by Christ Mt 17:23; 20:19; Mk 9:9; 14:28; Lk 9:22; 18:33; Jn
2:19; 10:18
Guarantee of our Faith 1Cor 15:17
Signifies our new birth Rom 6:4; Col 2:12; 1Pet 1:3
Proven by manifestations to disciples Mt 28:9; Mk 16:9; Lk 24:13-35; Jn
20:26; 21:1; Acts 1:3; 1Cor 15:6
Assurance of our own resurrection Rom 6:5; 1Cor 15:49; 2Cor 4:14; Phil
3:21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ascension or assumption Know the difference?
Jesus Ascended into heaven
Mk 16:19; Lk 24:50; Jn 20:17; Acts 1:3-9; Eph 4:10; 1Tim 3:16; 1Pet 3:22
Exalted in glory
Jn 12:16; Acts 2:32-33; 4:10-11; 7:55; Rom 8:34; Eph 1:20; Phil 2:9; Col 3:1
Second Coming
Will return in glory
Dan 7:13; Mt 24:30; 25:31; 26:64; 1Thess 4:16; Rev 1:7
At a time unknown
Mt 24:44; 25:13 Mk 13:35 Lk 12:40-46;1Thess 5:2 2; Pet 3:10; Rev 3:3; 16:15
Will come as Judge
Jn 5:22; Acts 10:42; 17:31; 2Tim 4:1; 1Pet 4:5; Rev 20:12-13
Judge of the living and dead
Acts 10:42; Rom 2:16;2Tim 4:1; 1Pet 4:5
For completion of salvation of just
Rom 2:7; 1Cor 1:8; Phil3:21; Heb 9:28; 1Pet 1:5
We should look for his coming
Rom 8:23; 1Cor 1:7;Phil 3:20; Col 3:1-4; 1Tim 1:1; Heb 10:37; 2 Pet 3:12
The Holy Spirit
Holy Spirit called Counselor Jn 14:16; 26; 15:26; 16:7
Called the Spirit of Truth Jn 15:26. 1Jn 5:7
From Father Lk 11:13. Jn 3:34; 15:26. 1Thess 4:8. 1Jn 3:24
Proceeds from Father and the Son Jn 15:26; 16:7; 16:13
Is given at baptism Mt 3:11-16. Lk 3:16. Jn 1:33. Acts 1:5; 2:38; 11:16
Is given at confirmation(separate from baptism) Acts 1:8; 8:15; 10:44;
19:6
Through the imposition of hands Acts 8:17; 9:17; 13:2-4;19:6
Holy Spirit dwells in us Jn 14:17. Acts 2:33. Rom 5:5. 1Cor 3:16; 6:19
Gal 3:14. Eph 1:13. 2Tim 1:14
Gifts of Holy Spirit Is 11:1-3; 61:1-2; Lk 4:18-19
Teacher and revealer of Truth Jn 14:26; 16:13; Acts 5:32; 9:31; 1Cor
2:10; Eph 3:5
Inspires men Acts 4:8; 6:10; 7:55
Inspired writing of Scriptures Acts 3:21; 2Tim 3:16; Pet 1:21
For a closer look see On Bible Translations
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Return to main concordance
----- Original Message -----
From: Dr. Neville Jones
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 9:56 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Forsaken Roots
We have communicated now for several years, Philip, and throughout that time
I have always perceived you to be honest, genuine and questioning. I do not
understand the distinction between the "real" Catholic Church and what I
observe to be the Catholic Church, but I respect your position. However, a very
large number of people are dishonest and you and I know from experience that
such people extend throughout any religion, Catholicism and Judaism included.
Now, if you accept that the Devil really does exist (and I only came to this
conclusion last year), and if you accept that he can manifest himself as an
angel of light, then we all have to face the fact that the sole reason for
manifesting himself thus is to lead people astray - i.e., to deceive as many as
possible. Does this not account perfectly for the fact that there are
apparently over 28,000 different sects, denominations, cults, ..., within the
so-called Christian category alone. And what about the Jews and the Muslims, do
they not argue amongst themselves as to meaning and interpretation constantly.
The Sunnis, the Shi-ites, the Orthodox Hassidic, the Revisionist, ... We cannot
put all of this down to lost meaning in ancient languages or translation. Even
using our intellect, we must see that this confusion and these contradictions
are designed, planned, deliberate.
You have used a combination of your spirit and your intellect to discount
certain popes as being false, in doing that you have held fast to your belief
in the fundamentals of the Catholic Church. All I have done is use my spirit
and my intellect to reject large sections of the "Old Testament," in
particular, based solely upon my belief in God.
Instead of never-ending debates, interpretations, word studies, etc., do we
not instantly obtain two things simply by recognizing the Devil for what he is:
1. Harmony and agreement.
2. A view of the world which enables us to make sense of what is going on
around us.
It is not adequate for anyone to state that the Bible is God-breathed simply
because the Bible claims itself to be so (2 Tim. 3:16, from memory). Such a
claim must be in harmony with the Spirit. This is where the intellect must give
way to the joining of our spirit with the Spirit of God.
Best wishes,
Neville.
philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
but are you not in danger of abandoning your responsibility in this respect
by accepting the conclusions of the Council of Trent, or Cardinal Belarmine (my
apologies - I can see that I have spelt his name wrongly, but cannot remember
the correct spelling at the moment), or Pope JP2, or whoever? Neville..
No apology needed. I would probably have spelt it the same way..
However you may have misread me, but you know from experience of my
previous utterings that "my responsibility" prevents me from falling into the
trap of blind obedience. This is where intellect is guided by the spirit
perhaps, but if the Spirit intervenes with every individual, then He is
certainly a complicated and confused person, given the variety of
contradictions among most of the people, Catholic or not Catholic.
I would accept the Council of Trent as dogmatic, but not Bellarmine. But I
should not entirely trust my interpretation of Trent, it being a very
complicated Latin presentation. I would listen to Bellarmine because he was
closer to it, and had more authority than I.. I also allow my intellect, or
the Spirit if you prefer, to abandon almost all of what popes Paul VI , or any
of his successors say or have said , simply because they have shown themselves
to be either confused or anti-catholic.. more probably the latter.
The trouble with the spirit Neville is a very troublesome problem for the
reasons I gave. Scripture says ( I cannot find where) we must test the Spirit
in all things.. To do that we must have intellect and reason.
Are we not in danger of abandoning our responsibility in accepting the
conclusions of men whether they be other men or ourselves, deluded as we may
well be by false spirits.
God must be worshipped in spirit and in truth. You cannot have one without
the other. Truth can be ascertained by correct reason. Discerning the Spirit
outside of Scripture is not so cut and dried. As you have chosen to censor
scripture, and reject large portions of it, how can you be certain of the
authenticity of your "spirit" without intellect?
Finally I have no dispute with this:
it is not primarily intellect, but a striving of the spirit towards truth
and constant prayer to request wisdom and understanding. That is why Christ
states that we shall know the truth, rather than unravel it or work it out.
Provided we are on track, He will give to our intellect the grace of
comprehension. But Neville, both you and I know people who strive with
constant prayer , but who are on many differing tracks....So what striving, and
on what track was Paul, when he took the road to Damascus?
Philip.
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