[esnr] Re: SAN

  • From: "Cornelia Dollfus" <c.dollfus@xxxxxx>
  • To: esnr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 19:31:15 +0200 (MEST)

Dear members, 

I think its not the question that  untrained and not in psychiatric field
working people will do neurofeedback with psychotic people. that would be
absolutely nonsense!they are not able to do the right diagnosis.  etc.

But what I suggest is, that we establish a well informed and trained field
of people working in the educational and optimal traning area, like John has
written that it is proposed. 
And these have to remain in the educational area and not to work with people
that are psychiatric ill. Here has a european society a responsibility with
their certifications and informations. 

Educational trainers  will be very important for clients, and also for
clinical neurofeedback, because some of such trainers are working yet, so a
society has to see that not untrained trainers beginn to work. It would be
very destructive for acceptance of neurofeedback in science and for clinical
work if really untrained and uncertified people do neurofeedback.   

So, dear Lesley, I understand your position but dont agree with you, but I
think we will get a
boumerang if we define the necessary training for working with neurofeedback
too hard towards having university studies. And for some disturbances it
will really be not necessary to have this. 

Psychotherapy and psychologic couselling are also near together, but have a
different clientele and often different goals. 

best wishes 

Cornelia Dollfus


 Dear Catherine,
> You raise a very important issue that certainly merits debate.
> Were the question posed in another field it would be easier to give clear 
> answers, e.g. Should untrained people be allowed to perfofm surgery?
> Most clear -thinking people would say "No", for many reasons including 
> protection of the public.
> Should people with no training in the psychiatric or mental health field
> be 
> able to provide Neurofeedback to people with Psychotic illness?
> I would say "Definitely not" for many reasons including boundaries of 
> competence, and lack of understanding of pschotic processes.
> I think one of the reasons Neurofeedback has such a poor reputation in
> some 
> parts of the USA is due to people applying protocols without full
> assessment 
> and with no concepyt of clinical complexity.
> If we are considering that it is not necessary to have a clinical training
> to work with clinical populations on clinically- related issues I think we
> need to proceed very carefully as we would be challenging EU thinking on 
> professional standards and behaviour.
> Societies are becoming ever more litiginous and I think if SAN wishes to
> be 
> taken seriously it needs to consider the issue you have raised carefully.
> It is also possible to be naive and not see the relevance of clinical 
> training when one has not undertaken a clinical training. Conversely 
> clinical training does not prepare one to take on the world either.
> Best Wishes
> Lesley
> >From: "Catherine Ruckert" <cjruckert@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >Reply-To: esnr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >To: esnr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: [esnr] Re: SAN
> >Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 05:44:10 +0000
> >
> >Is the intention really to encourage people to enter at the grassroots 
> >level or is it to prevent the grassroot level people from ever reaching
> the 
> >clinical level?  Just a query!!
> >
> >I was at the meeting in Winterthur and remember a very rushed agenda, at 
> >the end of a very long and demanding day. There was a  strong feeling 
> >amongst many participants that decisions had been made in advance of the 
> >meeting and that we were being bulldozed. There was little transparency
> in 
> >the proceedings.  I whole heartedly support this new initiative, but I
> like 
> >many others am concerned.
> >
> >With regards to Cornelia's post, while it certainly isn't necessary to
> have 
> >  medical training to work with learning disabled children,  it may well
> be 
> >necessary to have a degree in education!!!
> >
> >
> >
> >Incidentally, I think Norway is a wonderful place to have future
> meetings!!
> >
> >
> >
> >Catherine Ruckert MA,
> >
> >>From: "Gruzelier, John H" <j.gruzelier@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>Reply-To: esnr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>To: <esnr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>Subject: [esnr] Re: SAN
> >>Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:16:11 +0100
> >>
> >>Dear Cornelia,
> >>
> >>Thankyou for your support.
> >>
> >>The training programme will have three streams ;- clinical, educational 
> >>and optimal performance.  The intention will be to encourage people 
> >>without clinical and medical training to enter the educational and
> optimal 
> >>performance programmes.
> >>
> >>My own research programme also includes hypnosis and energy medicine,
> and 
> >>therefore I am very aware of the value (and limitations) of these 
> >>procedures, and the added advantages of eclectic approaches to optimise 
> >>performance and health.
> >>
> >>With best wishes,
> >>
> >>John
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: esnr-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:esnr-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On
> >>Behalf Of Cornelia Dollfus
> >>Sent: 16 June 2004 20:50
> >>To: ESNR@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>Subject: [esnr] SAN
> >>
> >>
> >>Dear John, Dear Members of E-iSNR
> >>
> >>Thank you John and other board members for your work and your ideas.
> >>I think it would be good to have a seperate association in Europe. It
> will
> >>be good to stand on our own feet, doing research, and have european
> >>standards especially for certification.
> >>
> >>Here in switzerland we have since years the situation that we have a
> >>therapeutic field (MD`s and Psychotherapists) and a great field of in
> >>complementary and alternative medicine working people. Some of these 
> >>methods
> >>are even payed by assurances.
> >>
> >>So we would be very happy with a solution that includes on one hand the
> >>scientific and therapeutic people and on the other hand these people 
> >>working
> >>more on educational side. To work with learning disabilities, with
> >>inattentive childs a.s.o.
> >>does not assume universitiy studies of psychology or medicine.
> >>
> >>I think it would be better to integrate such people of the nonmedical 
> >>field
> >>who are doing very good work for many clients and to give them the
> >>opportunity to learn from the scientists. In this way we can develop a
> >>community of many professional working people for a more therapeutic and
> >>/or
> >>scientific and for a more basically applied educational and /or 
> >>prophylactic
> >>field of performance - training.
> >>
> >>
> >>best regards
> >>
> >>Cornelia Dollfus MD
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>Cornelia Dollfus
> >>Dr. med., Ärztin für Psychotherapie und Neurofeedback
> >>Feldeggstr. 12
> >>8008 Zürich
> >>
> >>Co-Leiterin Neurofeedback-Institut Schweiz
> >>
> >>Mitglied u.a. NAS, i-SNR, AAPB,
> >>
> >>+++ Jetzt WLAN-Router für alle DSL-Einsteiger und Wechsler +++
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> >>
> >>
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
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> >

Cornelia Dollfus
Dr. med., Ärztin für Psychotherapie und Neurofeedback
Feldeggstr. 12
8008 Zürich

Co-Leiterin Neurofeedback-Institut Schweiz

Mitglied u.a. NAS, i-SNR, AAPB,

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