Thank you Vinay, this is such a great take on it. The question of
supervision and doing one's own work is really at the heart of many misuses
or entanglements in a number of modalities, not only FC. Energy work,
shamanism, etc are all subjects to the same issues. There is no simple
solution to this, I'm afraid, as ultimately it comes down to personal sense
of accountability and willingness to consider peers criticism or
suggestions, as well as to accept the reality of our own blind spots.
Very grateful for this thread and everyone's willingness to look at this
honestly.
Laure
On Apr 20, 2017 18:01, "Steve Vinay Gunther spirited@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk]" <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I think there are a number of complex issues going on here…as is always the
case in the field.
Firstly, there is in spiritual traditions, some history of the use of
violence. For instance, the stick of the Zen master. But this is obviously
always very delicate. If the Zen master is 100% clear, with no ego at at,
and uses the stick in a way which is completely in the Tao, perfect in the
moment, then it can help in the process of ‘waking up’ a practitioner.
However, in the hands of anyone else, that stick is simply either
traumatising at worst, or a kind of boot camp monitor's ‘dont sleep in
meditation’ at best.
The trouble is, there are few people at that enlightened point where they
can use ‘the stick’ in such a way.
So in most instances, it comes with some ego, and creates at least some
trauma. Though I guess a very serious spiritual adherent could use the pain
in some way for their own transcendence practice.
But family constellations is not an exclusively spiritual practice, and
facilitators are not in the role specifically of spiritual teachers.
Hellinger may elevate himself (and Sophie) to such a role, or people may
want to place him in such a role, and then the question would be, are he -
and she - able to fulfil such roles in an enlightened way.
My own judgement is that Hellinger is a profoundly spiritual man, with deep
realisation, but certainly not enlightened. So I think that much of the
time his effect is spiritual as much as psychological. And I also think
that at times, his ego can get in the way. And when combined with violence,
that can have a bad effect. Sophie, I dont believe has much of a level of
spiritual realisation, and therefore her interventions on this level are
more ego based, and therefore potentially more damaging.
I think its important to exercise this kind of judgment ('discrimination'
in yogic terms) when evaluating the actions of people who want their
teachings to be accepted as spiritual guidance, which Bert and Sophie
clearly are asking.
The complexity of this situation is added to because FC falls ostensibly in
the sphere of a psychological practice; this arena does not have room for
claims of spiritual leadership. The facilitator is a skilled practitioner,
who applies knowledge and theory of human dynamics in a careful,
professionally ethical, and respectful manner. Hellnger started as a priest
- the role of spiritual guide, then moved into the psychological arena.
Family constellations is a synthesis of a range of elements, including
shamanistic ones. The shaman is not a psychological facilitator, but more
in an authority role - similar in that sense to a priest, and invoking the
need for complete trust on the part of the client. Where such authority is
used with complete benevolence, then even painful rituals may be
transformative. But a little ego, and such power can become abusive.
So again, I think the evaluation of the amount of ego (and self blindness)
which occurs in the the authority-component of family constellations is
essential - not simply requiring trust (blind obedience) on the part of the
client/group.
The FC field has allowed practitioners in who have zero psychological
background, and I know on this list we have had discussions about this.
Because its not solely a psychological practice, it can be learned - and
effectively performed - by people who draw on their life experience, their
own level of development, and perhaps other claims to the skills involved.
I know there are many facilitators on this list who do not have specific
psychological training, and yet are excellent practitioners. So the issue
of qualifications, training, etc, is a complex one.
However, this is a case where I think a lack of quality psychological
training becomes an obstacle to good practice. I do not know Sophie’s
training. None of the blurbs on her mention this. They simply give her the
status as Bert’s wife, and some cotton wool besides that. She claims being
a ‘counsellor’ as a result of the time with Bert.
Yes, in many ways, she could claim having undertaken a mentorship-type of
training with Bert. However, this is obviously fraught, as being trained by
your husband has its blind sides.
Part of what a good therapy training involves is many hours of ones own
therapy, and many hours of supervision. I do not know if Sophie has
undergone either of these - and the supervision of her husband is such a
dual role that its definitely limited.
So I think theres a problem with her appointment by him to the role she
plays, without any other kind of training on her part.
When I was running my Gestalt institute, my wife and I would attend some of
the public workshops run by visiting presenters. One of them, a friend of
mine, made a comment, that this was problematic, as it was like the ‘king
and queen visiting’. That is, we couldnt just be participants, our roles
were too set by the other context. And my wife was essentially ‘appointed’
to that position by virtue of her association with me - and this was simpy
as participants.
I think theres this same kind of issue with Sophie. Appointment of people
to a therapy-type role and a position of authority is problematic, because
it bypasses training.
If you look at what the Hellinger website says about her:
'Sophie Hellinger is an extraordinary woman, wife, mother and grandmother.
Her many sides and appearances make it difficult to describe her in words.
She has been active in the counseling area for already decades. The areas
of application of the seminars conducted by Sophie Hellinger really have a
unique characteristic.
The powerful and esteeming attention which the clients can experience with
her, create confidence in life itself.
The people able to surrender to her know how to appreciate her abilities
and her open manner, which is very direct and clear. In each case she takes
people to their light and shadow side - their integrity, which is often
experienced as something like an earthquake. It is an extraordinary event
which shows connections that go deeper and beyond the limited mental
imagination.
She easily transcends barriers and leads into levels of solutions which are
alienated from common consciousness, although they make one take notice.
Her knowledge and skill extend from professional career movements to topics
on heath, be it psychic or physical, and many other areas of life, as well
as passed ones.
Through her unique gift, strengthened by her always present interest and
openness, paired with experience and enormous knowledge, Sophie Hellinger
disposes of an almost eerie-like divination in relation to spiritual,
physical and inter-personal suffering. Thus she is able to constantly show
us an image which allows and provides inner and external growth within a
safe context. To what she connects her potential or from what source she
takes her energy is kept hidden to the spectator. It often resembles magic.'
We can see that her claims to status rely on not much professional
substance, apart from having been with Bert. ‘Active in the counselling
area’ is entirely based on her time with Bert, as her sole trainer. The use
of the word ‘surrender’ suggests the theme of spiritual teacher.
‘Transcending barriers’ is a very problematic term from the point of view
of professional ethics, and suggests that this is not a reference point for
her. Again, the claims to divination, and magic suggest either that of a
shaman or spiritual teacher, which is a strong claim, and dangerous without
sufficient preparation and training and humility - factors which I dont
think can be entirely supplied by her husband.
The trouble is, in the minds of the general public, this is just as much
FC, as anything else - and the destructive components of ego-based
authority become associated with FC in general.
But moving away from Bert and Sophie, I think these are wider issues for
our community of facilitators in general. The claim to authority -
intepretive authority for instance - can be problematic from a
psychological point of view, as this can work against the very
phenomenological approach which family constellations claims to take. And
the criticisms here of Bert and Sophie can be relevant to any of us, to the
degree we use our power as facitilators without sufficient awareness.
So the discussion can open up this direction of exploration as well, to
good effect I hope.
Vinay
On 20 Apr 2017, at 6:35 am, ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
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15 Messages
Digest #2853
1a
Re: Orders of love and trauma by "Anne Beversdorf" annebeversdorf
1b
Re: Orders of love and trauma by "Joanna Malinowska" malinowska_joanna
1c
Re: Orders of love and trauma by "Christine Ruettimann" christine.sarena@
ymail.com
1d
Re: Orders of love and trauma by "Joanna Malinowska" malinowska_joanna
1e
Re: Orders of love and trauma by "Gertrud Yasutake"
1f
Re: Orders of love and trauma by "Janice Crawford"
1g
Re: Orders of love and trauma by "Leslie Nipps"
2a
What is by
2b
Re: What is by "Linda Conyard"
2c
Re: What is by "Deborah Crowe"
2d
Re: What is by "Eimear O'Neill"
3
Physical harm by Perpetrator by "bizden titiz" bizdentitiz
4a
Fwd: Orders of love and trauma by "Chuck Cogliandro" mkdrum1
4b
Re: Fwd: Orders of love and trauma by "Barbara Morgan"
4c
Re: Fwd: Orders of love and trauma by "Julio Príncipe"
Messages
1aRe: Orders of love and trauma
<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ConstellationTalk/conversations/topics/11652;_ylc=X3oDMTJydmU3b2VpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkwMDgyODcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYyMjE1BG1zZ0lkAzExNjUyBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzE0OTI2Mzc3MzQ->
Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:53 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Anne Beversdorf" annebeversdorf
<anne@xxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Orders%20of%20love%20and%20trauma>
I have an associate who recounted to me a story of attending a workshop in
Germany where Hellinger replaced the representative for Father and faced the
young man who would not respect his father. and Bert hit they guy very hard
in the chest. My friend said he imagines it was Bert's own issues breaking
through and that he probably felt badly about it after, but who knows. And I
have had potential clients saying they've seen some material about the
Hellinger work that she found hierarchical and threatening and wasn't sure
about participating.
It makes me wonder again about the different stages of his work. I started
practice in the early 2000's, before he had fully moved into the 'movement
only' work, not to mention stuff that came later. I know, in constellations,
it is not my role to force issues on anyone. Period. I generally feel very
good about the self-respect and positive feelings that come to most of the
participants and clients in constellations. I have twice had clients that
refused to see the results, denying the experiences of the representatives
(and my observations) to be in any way meaningful. My response (yes,
internal frustration) is to explain that the work is done with the response
of participants to the energy of the family situation. If that work by many
participants does not speak to client, I can't change the work.
My answer to queries about Bert's practices is that I cannot participate in
anything that coerces people and feel sure they will feel safe.
Anne Beversdorf
Counseling Astrologer, Western and Vedic
<mailto:anne@xxxxxxxxxxx ;<anne@xxxxxxxxxxx>> anne@xxxxxxxxxxx; <
http://www.stariel.com/>
www.stariel.com; <http://www.sacred-threads.com/> www.sacred-threads.com
Board of Directors; Librarian, The Alexandria IBase Project
http://alexandriaibase.org/home
Author: Vedic Secrets to Happiness <http://www.createspace.com/3802578>
www.createspace. <http://www.createspace.com/3802578>com/3802578
<http://www.createspace.com/3802578>
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1bRe: Orders of love and trauma
<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ConstellationTalk/conversations/topics/11653;_ylc=X3oDMTJyc2xqM2cyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkwMDgyODcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYyMjE1BG1zZ0lkAzExNjUzBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzE0OTI2Mzc3MzQ->
Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:24 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Joanna Malinowska"
malinowska_joanna
<joanna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Orders%20of%20love%20and%20trauma>
Dear Giselle,
Yes, I could not believe my eyes. The girl was hit with a microphone, and
quite hard. Yet what was happening before was also forced. It was visible
that mother and daughter were connected before Sophie was trying to force
some words on the daughter. The mother smiled, the daughter was chatting
with her. Then they became more and more rigid and disconnected. If there
was trauma there, then more trauma has been added. It was also brake of
trust, I wonder if this girl will be open to any therapy in the future.
This was not what Family Constellations is about as it was not love (and no
compassion), even no respect, and definitely nothing from the Knowing
Field. It was just acting from the power and superiority.
When it comes to the TRUTH, nobody holds it. The person can be hold by the
TRUTH when he or she is open to it. Then the TRUTH speaks through him /
her. We can call TRUTH different names, God, or Spirit or just
Unconditional Love, or Universe. Unfortunately, the individuals who are
touch by TRUTH quite offer become grandiose and take it for their personal
greatness. And this is how they loose connection with TRUTH. Or there are
some other reasons, sickness or old age, and they forget. The TRUTH stays
and evolves, and we can be always grateful to them for showing us the way,
even if they do not lead anymore.
Thank you fo sharing.
With LOve
Joanna
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:19 AM, 'Heather Embree'
heather@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
of
Thanks for sharing this, Giselle. That is disturbing for me personally. I
have seen facilitators use physical contact with clients and it’s an act
trying to put one in place of respecting the order with a notion ofthe
punishment. For me, that scene is publically humiliating and shuts down
younger person from her truth and feelings. There are real cases of
parental abuse that may not be addressed (I am only going by body language
here as I don’t understand German or Russian), and it an go to further
silence someone from the truth of the issues.
It’s not my style and rather for me the movement with any discord is
helping each person see the other’s humanity, personal violence and learn
how to self-care or self-protect in the face of it.
Thank you for sharing.
Heather
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ConstellationTalk@
yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 8:40 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Orders of love and trauma
Dear ones,
I have been wanting to connect with you about this for some months…
Someone sent me a video from Bert which I find quite disturbing. Since
then, I have mixed feelings... I would really appreciate you let me know
your feelings/thoughts about it.
We know the truth he - and Sophie - are holding and yet, in my heart, and
as a trauma therapist, I can’t accept this violence, which also seems
unnecessary. There is some kind of fundamentalism about the orders of love
that seems to be very disconnected. I really wonder about the effects this
has… I could say more, but I would really love if you could let me know<http://www.interbeing.space/>
what your thoughts are… The video is in German and Russian… but if you
can’t understand the words, at least you can see the faces and the moment
Sophie hits a participant with the microphone, and, afterwards Bert sends
out someone who complains about this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ
With love and gratitude,
Giselle
<http://www.interbeing.space>
www.interbeing. <http://www.interbeing.space/>space
Giselle Charbonnier
+49 (0)163 834 1924 <+49%20163%208341924> <+49%20163%208341924>
Bevernstr. 6, 10997, Berlin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dear ones
Watching this is also rather dirturbing to me. What comes to my mind is
that human conduct is ever unreliable. The way the "constellation" was
facilitated was full of ego and without any respect and sensitivity from
both Sophie and Bert.
for those who don't understand German or Russian I give the German
translation:
*Sophie forces the young woman to say to her mother: "You are here the big
one". The daughter says to Sophie that she cannot say it, because she hasShe
so many problems. Still Sophie tries to force her. After the daughter
becomes more irritated Sophie tries the same procedure with the mother.
orders her to say to the daughter: "You are here the little one". Shecan't
say it either. Sophie says "You HAVE TO honour the hierarchy", then beinggroup
frustrated walkes away. Bert says "This was a good demonstration what it
means to violate the hierarchy (ranking system)." Then someone of the
says something and Bert asks three times. "Who was talking here?". When he
sees the woman he says "Get out of the door!" Then he says to all: "We
don't tolerate it if someone arrogates to intervene here!"*
*Sitting down he says two times: "Now I made clear WHO is the big one
here!" Sophie says: "It's about life and death. TO VIOLATE THE HIERARCHY
IS LEADING TO DEATH". ....... (resulting in dead silence)*
We all make mistakes. But in my opinion the *attitude* that was
demonstrated here is very harmful to the wonderful gift of constellationof
work.
Christine Rüttimann
Switzerland
"Joanna Malinowska joanna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]" <
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb am 4:24 Mittwoch, 19.April
2017:
Dear Giselle,
Yes, I could not believe my eyes. The girl was hit with a microphone, and
quite hard. Yet what was happening before was also forced. It was visible
that mother and daughter were connected before Sophie was trying to force
some words on the daughter. The mother smiled, the daughter was chatting
with her. Then they became more and more rigid and disconnected. If there
was trauma there, then more trauma has been added. It was also brake of
trust, I wonder if this girl will be open to any therapy in the future.
This was not what Family Constellations is about as it was not love (and
no compassion), even no respect, and definitely nothing from the Knowing
Field. It was just acting from the power and superiority.
When it comes to the TRUTH, nobody holds it. The person can be hold by the
TRUTH when he or she is open to it. Then the TRUTH speaks through him /
her. We can call TRUTH different names, God, or Spirit or just
Unconditional Love, or Universe. Unfortunately, the individuals who are
touch by TRUTH quite offer become grandiose and take it for their personal
greatness. And this is how they loose connection with TRUTH. Or there are
some other reasons, sickness or old age, and they forget. The TRUTH stays
and evolves, and we can be always grateful to them for showing us the way,
even if they do not lead anymore.
Thank you fo sharing.
With LOve
Joanna
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:19 AM, 'Heather Embree'
heather@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@
yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Thanks for sharing this, Giselle. That is disturbing for me personally. I
have seen facilitators use physical contact with clients and it’s an act
trying to put one in place of respecting the order with a notion ofthe
punishment. For me, that scene is publically humiliating and shuts down
younger person from her truth and feelings. There are real cases of
parental abuse that may not be addressed (I am only going by body language
here as I don’t understand German or Russian), and it an go to further
silence someone from the truth of the issues.
It’s not my style and rather for me the movement with any discord is
helping each person see the other’s humanity, personal violence and learn
how to self-care or self-protect in the face of it.
Thank you for sharing.
Heather
From: ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:ConstellationTalk@
yahoogroups.com <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 8:40 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Orders of love and trauma
Dear ones,
I have been wanting to connect with you about this for some months…
Someone sent me a video from Bert which I find quite disturbing. Since
then, I have mixed feelings... I would really appreciate you let me know
your feelings/thoughts about it.
We know the truth he - and Sophie - are holding and yet, in my heart, and
as a trauma therapist, I can’t accept this violence, which also seems
unnecessary. There is some kind of fundamentalism about the orders of love
that seems to be very disconnected. I really wonder about the effects this
has… I could say more, but I would really love if you could let me know
what your thoughts are… The video is in German and Russian… but if you
can’t understand the words, at least you can see the faces and the moment
Sophie hits a participant with the microphone, and, afterwards Bert sends
out someone who complains about this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=hjp7Frr3QjQ
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ>
<http://www.interbeing.space/>
With love and gratitude,
Giselle
<http://www.interbeing.space>
www.interbeing. <http://www.interbeing.space/>space
<http://www.myhypno.com.au/>
Giselle Charbonnier
+49 (0)163 834 1924 <+49%20163%208341924>
Bevernstr. 6, 10997, Berlin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--
Joanna Malinowska
Clinical Hypnotherapist
www.myhypno. <http://www.myhypno.com.au/>com.au
www.self-hypnosis. <http://www.self-hypnosis.com.au/>com.au<http://www.self-hypnosis.com.au/>
Mobile 0412 092 972
What I see watching this video clip:
The constellation takes place in Russia.
The constellation is done sitting down in a row of seating behind another
row of seated people.
This location gives a sense of being cramped and not allotted the proper
space for whatever issue is addressed.
The facilitator stands and moves around while the representatives sit and
cannot move much, the height difference.
At some point there is some jovial rapport between the two
representatives.
The facilitator does a lot of finger pointing.
The daughter's representative is locked in a long look with the
facilitator, looking up at her with a set and closed face. She gets hit on
the head by the facilitator with the mike (an instrument of power).
The sitting women have no support, male or otherwise. The female
facilitator HAS support from a male.
The male steps in and sends another woman out of the room.
Words of life and death are spoken.
Some interpretation: The constellation has become a Russia issue. Russia
has a very long history of repression, first in the history of serfdom and
later in the history of communism. As Hunter Beaumont explained in one of
his workshops, in many countries that suffer violence, the men become
decimated through war and other terrors. The women have to become the
survivors and strong in carrying on.
The constellation shows three kind of reactions to tyranny: the ones that
disappear, the ones that try to cooperate (mother’s rep) and the ones that
rebel. Sophie and Bert were part of that constellation.
Gertrud Yasutake
________________________________
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
on behalf of Giselle Charbonnier gisellecharbonnier@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 8:40 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Orders of love and trauma
Dear ones,
I have been wanting to connect with you about this for some months…
Someone sent me a video from Bert which I find quite disturbing. Since
then, I have mixed feelings... I would really appreciate you let me know
your feelings/thoughts about it.
We know the truth he - and Sophie - are holding and yet, in my heart, and
as a trauma therapist, I can’t accept this violence, which also seems
unnecessary. There is some kind of fundamentalism about the orders of love
that seems to be very disconnected. I really wonder about the effects this
has… I could say more, but I would really love if you could let me know<http://www.interbeing.space/>
what your thoughts are… The video is in German and Russian… but if you
can’t understand the words, at least you can see the faces and the moment
Sophie hits a participant with the microphone, and, afterwards Bert sends
out someone who complains about this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ
[https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVP.LhPIvLFpm3ckhMNxbB59ugEsDh&pid=Api]<
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ>
Видео 2<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ>
www.youtube.com
"Новые" техники семейных расстановок показанные Софией и Бертом
Хеллингером на семинаре ...
With love and gratitude,
Giselle
[cid:9591B616-6606-4A53-89F9-A0549E7ECF5B@fritz.box]
www.interbeing.space<http://www.interbeing.space>
Integracion Personal : Técnicas Psicofisicas y Sistémicas ...<
http://www.interbeing.space/>
www.interbeing. <http://www.interbeing.space/>space
El ser humano es una totalidad indivisible -cuerpo, mente y alma- e
inseparable del contexto mayor que incluye sus vínculos con otros seres
humanos y con su entorno.
Giselle Charbonnier
+49 (0)163 834 1924 <+49%20163%208341924> <+49%20163%208341924>
Bevernstr. 6, 10997, Berlin
[Non-text p
