I think there are a number of complex issues going on here…as is always the case in the field.
Firstly, there is in spiritual traditions, some history of the use of violence. For instance, the stick of the Zen master. But this is obviously always very delicate. If the Zen master is 100% clear, with no ego at at, and uses the stick in a way which is completely in the Tao, perfect in the moment, then it can help in the process of ‘waking up’ a practitioner.
However, in the hands of anyone else, that stick is simply either traumatising at worst, or a kind of boot camp monitor's ‘dont sleep in meditation’ at best.
The trouble is, there are few people at that enlightened point where they can use ‘the stick’ in such a way.
So in most instances, it comes with some ego, and creates at least some trauma. Though I guess a very serious spiritual adherent could use the pain in some way for their own transcendence practice.
But family constellations is not an exclusively spiritual practice, and facilitators are not in the role specifically of spiritual teachers. Hellinger may elevate himself (and Sophie) to such a role, or people may want to place him in such a role, and then the question would be, are he - and she - able to fulfil such roles in an enlightened way.
My own judgement is that Hellinger is a profoundly spiritual man, with deep realisation, but certainly not enlightened. So I think that much of the time his effect is spiritual as much as psychological. And I also think that at times, his ego can get in the way. And when combined with violence, that can have a bad effect. Sophie, I dont believe has much of a level of spiritual realisation, and therefore her interventions on this level are more ego based, and therefore potentially more damaging.
I think its important to exercise this kind of judgment ('discrimination' in yogic terms) when evaluating the actions of people who want their teachings to be accepted as spiritual guidance, which Bert and Sophie clearly are asking.
The complexity of this situation is added to because FC falls ostensibly in the sphere of a psychological practice; this arena does not have room for claims of spiritual leadership. The facilitator is a skilled practitioner, who applies knowledge and theory of human dynamics in a careful, professionally ethical, and respectful manner. Hellnger started as a priest - the role of spiritual guide, then moved into the psychological arena. Family constellations is a synthesis of a range of elements, including shamanistic ones. The shaman is not a psychological facilitator, but more in an authority role - similar in that sense to a priest, and invoking the need for complete trust on the part of the client. Where such authority is used with complete benevolence, then even painful rituals may be transformative. But a little ego, and such power can become abusive.
So again, I think the evaluation of the amount of ego (and self blindness) which occurs in the the authority-component of family constellations is essential - not simply requiring trust (blind obedience) on the part of the client/group.
The FC field has allowed practitioners in who have zero psychological background, and I know on this list we have had discussions about this. Because its not solely a psychological practice, it can be learned - and effectively performed - by people who draw on their life experience, their own level of development, and perhaps other claims to the skills involved.
I know there are many facilitators on this list who do not have specific psychological training, and yet are excellent practitioners. So the issue of qualifications, training, etc, is a complex one.
However, this is a case where I think a lack of quality psychological training becomes an obstacle to good practice. I do not know Sophie’s training. None of the blurbs on her mention this. They simply give her the status as Bert’s wife, and some cotton wool besides that. She claims being a ‘counsellor’ as a result of the time with Bert.
Yes, in many ways, she could claim having undertaken a mentorship-type of training with Bert. However, this is obviously fraught, as being trained by your husband has its blind sides.
Part of what a good therapy training involves is many hours of ones own therapy, and many hours of supervision. I do not know if Sophie has undergone either of these - and the supervision of her husband is such a dual role that its definitely limited.
So I think theres a problem with her appointment by him to the role she plays, without any other kind of training on her part.
When I was running my Gestalt institute, my wife and I would attend some of the public workshops run by visiting presenters. One of them, a friend of mine, made a comment, that this was problematic, as it was like the ‘king and queen visiting’. That is, we couldnt just be participants, our roles were too set by the other context. And my wife was essentially ‘appointed’ to that position by virtue of her association with me - and this was simpy as participants.
I think theres this same kind of issue with Sophie. Appointment of people to a therapy-type role and a position of authority is problematic, because it bypasses training.
If you look at what the Hellinger website says about her:
'Sophie Hellinger is an extraordinary woman, wife, mother and grandmother. Her many sides and appearances make it difficult to describe her in words.
She has been active in the counseling area for already decades. The areas of application of the seminars conducted by Sophie Hellinger really have a unique characteristic.
The powerful and esteeming attention which the clients can experience with her, create confidence in life itself.
The people able to surrender to her know how to appreciate her abilities and her open manner, which is very direct and clear. In each case she takes people to their light and shadow side - their integrity, which is often experienced as something like an earthquake. It is an extraordinary event which shows connections that go deeper and beyond the limited mental imagination.
She easily transcends barriers and leads into levels of solutions which are alienated from common consciousness, although they make one take notice.
Her knowledge and skill extend from professional career movements to topics on heath, be it psychic or physical, and many other areas of life, as well as passed ones.
Through her unique gift, strengthened by her always present interest and openness, paired with experience and enormous knowledge, Sophie Hellinger disposes of an almost eerie-like divination in relation to spiritual, physical and inter-personal suffering. Thus she is able to constantly show us an image which allows and provides inner and external growth within a safe context. To what she connects her potential or from what source she takes her energy is kept hidden to the spectator. It often resembles magic.'
On 20 Apr 2017, at 6:35 am, ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
Constellation Talk Group 15 MessagesDigest #28531aRe: Orders of love and trauma by "Anne Beversdorf" annebeversdorf 1bRe: Orders of love and trauma by "Joanna Malinowska" malinowska_joanna 1cRe: Orders of love and trauma by "Christine Ruettimann" christine.sarena@xxxxxxxxx1dRe: Orders of love and trauma by "Joanna Malinowska" malinowska_joanna 1eRe: Orders of love and trauma by "Gertrud Yasutake"1fRe: Orders of love and trauma by "Janice Crawford"1gRe: Orders of love and trauma by "Leslie Nipps"2aWhat is by 2bRe: What is by "Linda Conyard"2cRe: What is by "Deborah Crowe"2dRe: What is by "Eimear O'Neill"3Physical harm by Perpetrator by "bizden titiz" bizdentitiz 4aFwd: Orders of love and trauma by "Chuck Cogliandro" mkdrum1 4bRe: Fwd: Orders of love and trauma by "Barbara Morgan"4cRe: Fwd: Orders of love and trauma by "Julio Príncipe"
Messages1aRe: Orders of love and trauma Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:53 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Anne Beversdorf" annebeversdorf I have an associate who recounted to me a story of attending a workshop in
Germany where Hellinger replaced the representative for Father and faced the
young man who would not respect his father. and Bert hit they guy very hard
in the chest. My friend said he imagines it was Bert's own issues breaking
through and that he probably felt badly about it after, but who knows. And I
have had potential clients saying they've seen some material about the
Hellinger work that she found hierarchical and threatening and wasn't sure
about participating.
It makes me wonder again about the different stages of his work. I started
practice in the early 2000's, before he had fully moved into the 'movement
only' work, not to mention stuff that came later. I know, in constellations,
it is not my role to force issues on anyone. Period. I generally feel very
good about the self-respect and positive feelings that come to most of the
participants and clients in constellations. I have twice had clients that
refused to see the results, denying the experiences of the representatives
(and my observations) to be in any way meaningful. My response (yes,
internal frustration) is to explain that the work is done with the response
of participants to the energy of the family situation. If that work by many
participants does not speak to client, I can't change the work.
My answer to queries about Bert's practices is that I cannot participate in
anything that coerces people and feel sure they will feel safe.
Anne Beversdorf
Counseling Astrologer, Western and Vedic
<mailto:anne@xxxxxxxxxxx> anne@xxxxxxxxxxx; <http://www.stariel.com/>
www.stariel.com; <http://www.sacred-threads.com/> www.sacred-threads.com
Board of Directors; Librarian, The Alexandria IBase Project
http://alexandriaibase.org/home
Author: Vedic Secrets to Happiness <http://www.createspace.com/3802578>
www.createspace.com/3802578
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (12) . Top ^1bRe: Orders of love and trauma Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:24 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Joanna Malinowska" malinowska_joanna Dear Giselle,
Yes, I could not believe my eyes. The girl was hit with a microphone, and
quite hard. Yet what was happening before was also forced. It was visible
that mother and daughter were connected before Sophie was trying to force
some words on the daughter. The mother smiled, the daughter was chatting
with her. Then they became more and more rigid and disconnected. If there
was trauma there, then more trauma has been added. It was also brake of
trust, I wonder if this girl will be open to any therapy in the future.
This was not what Family Constellations is about as it was not love (and no
compassion), even no respect, and definitely nothing from the Knowing
Field. It was just acting from the power and superiority.
When it comes to the TRUTH, nobody holds it. The person can be hold by the
TRUTH when he or she is open to it. Then the TRUTH speaks through him /
her. We can call TRUTH different names, God, or Spirit or just
Unconditional Love, or Universe. Unfortunately, the individuals who are
touch by TRUTH quite offer become grandiose and take it for their personal
greatness. And this is how they loose connection with TRUTH. Or there are
some other reasons, sickness or old age, and they forget. The TRUTH stays
and evolves, and we can be always grateful to them for showing us the way,
even if they do not lead anymore.
Thank you fo sharing.
With LOve
Joanna
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:19 AM, 'Heather Embree'
heather@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for sharing this, Giselle. That is disturbing for me personally. I
> have seen facilitators use physical contact with clients and it’s an act of
> trying to put one in place of respecting the order with a notion of
> punishment. For me, that scene is publically humiliating and shuts down the
> younger person from her truth and feelings. There are real cases of
> parental abuse that may not be addressed (I am only going by body language
> here as I don’t understand German or Russian), and it an go to further
> silence someone from the truth of the issues.
>
> It’s not my style and rather for me the movement with any discord is
> helping each person see the other’s humanity, personal violence and learn
> how to self-care or self-protect in the face of it.
>
> Thank you for sharing.
>
> Heather
>
> From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ConstellationTalk@
> yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 8:40 AM
> To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Orders of love and trauma
>
> Dear ones,
>
> I have been wanting to connect with you about this for some months…
> Someone sent me a video from Bert which I find quite disturbing. Since
> then, I have mixed feelings... I would really appreciate you let me know
> your feelings/thoughts about it.
>
> We know the truth he - and Sophie - are holding and yet, in my heart, and
> as a trauma therapist, I can’t accept this violence, which also seems
> unnecessary. There is some kind of fundamentalism about the orders of love
> that seems to be very disconnected. I really wonder about the effects this
> has… I could say more, but I would really love if you could let me know
> what your thoughts are… The video is in German and Russian… but if you
> can’t understand the words, at least you can see the faces and the moment
> Sophie hits a participant with the microphone, and, afterwards Bert sends
> out someone who complains about this...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ
>
> With love and gratitude,
>
> Giselle
>
> <http://www.interbeing.space>
> www.interbeing.space
>
> Giselle Charbonnier
> +49 (0)163 834 1924 <+49%20163%208341924>
> Bevernstr. 6, 10997, Berlin
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
--
Joanna Malinowska
Clinical Hypnotherapist
www.myhypno.com.au
www.self-hypnosis.com.au
Mobile 0412 092 972
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (12) . Top ^1cRe: Orders of love and trauma Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:51 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Christine Ruettimann" christine.sarena@xxxxxxxxx Dear ones
Watching this is also rather dirturbing to me. What comes to my mind is that human conduct is ever unreliable. The way the "constellation" was facilitated was full of ego and without any respect and sensitivity from both Sophie and Bert.
for those who don't understand German or Russian I give the German translation:
Sophie forces the young woman to say to her mother: "You are here the big one". The daughter says to Sophie that she cannot say it, because she has so many problems. Still Sophie tries to force her. After the daughter becomes more irritated Sophie tries the same procedure with the mother. She orders her to say to the daughter: "You are here the little one". She can't say it either. Sophie says "You HAVE TO honour the hierarchy", then being frustrated walkes away. Bert says "This was a good demonstration what it means to violate the hierarchy (ranking system)." Then someone of the group says something and Bert asks three times. "Who was talking here?". When he sees the woman he says "Get out of the door!" Then he says to all: "We don't tolerate it if someone arrogates to intervene here!"Sitting down he says two times: "Now I made clear WHO is the big one here!" Sophie says: "It's about life and death. TO VIOLATE THE HIERARCHY IS LEADING TO DEATH". ....... (resulting in dead silence)
We all make mistakes. But in my opinion the attitude that was demonstrated here is very harmful to the wonderful gift of constellation work.
Christine RüttimannSwitzerland
"Joanna Malinowska joanna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]" <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb am 4:24 Mittwoch, 19.April 2017:
Dear Giselle,
Yes, I could not believe my eyes. The girl was hit with a microphone, and quite hard. Yet what was happening before was also forced. It was visible that mother and daughter were connected before Sophie was trying to force some words on the daughter. The mother smiled, the daughter was chatting with her. Then they became more and more rigid and disconnected. If there was trauma there, then more trauma has been added. It was also brake of trust, I wonder if this girl will be open to any therapy in the future.
This was not what Family Constellations is about as it was not love (and no compassion), even no respect, and definitely nothing from the Knowing Field. It was just acting from the power and superiority.
When it comes to the TRUTH, nobody holds it. The person can be hold by the TRUTH when he or she is open to it. Then the TRUTH speaks through him / her. We can call TRUTH different names, God, or Spirit or just Unconditional Love, or Universe. Unfortunately, the individuals who are touch by TRUTH quite offer become grandiose and take it for their personal greatness. And this is how they loose connection with TRUTH. Or there are some other reasons, sickness or old age, and they forget. The TRUTH stays and evolves, and we can be always grateful to them for showing us the way, even if they do not lead anymore.
Thank you fo sharing.
With LOve
Joanna
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:19 AM, 'Heather Embree' heather@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Thanks for sharing this, Giselle. That is disturbing for me personally. I have seen facilitators use physical contact with clients and it’s an act of trying to put one in place of respecting the order with a notion of punishment. For me, that scene is publically humiliating and shuts down the younger person from her truth and feelings. There are real cases of parental abuse that may not be addressed (I am only going by body language here as I don’t understand German or Russian), and it an go to further silence someone from the truth of the issues.
It’s not my style and rather for me the movement with any discord is helping each person see the other’s humanity, personal violence and learn how to self-care or self-protect in the face of it.
Thank you for sharing.
Heather
From: ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ConstellationTalk@ yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 8:40 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Orders of love and trauma
Dear ones,
I have been wanting to connect with you about this for some months… Someone sent me a video from Bert which I find quite disturbing. Since then, I have mixed feelings... I would really appreciate you let me know your feelings/thoughts about it.
We know the truth he - and Sophie - are holding and yet, in my heart, and as a trauma therapist, I can’t accept this violence, which also seems unnecessary. There is some kind of fundamentalism about the orders of love that seems to be very disconnected. I really wonder about the effects this has… I could say more, but I would really love if you could let me know what your thoughts are… The video is in German and Russian… but if you can’t understand the words, at least you can see the faces and the moment Sophie hits a participant with the microphone, and, afterwards Bert sends out someone who complains about this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=hjp7Frr3QjQ
With love and gratitude,
Giselle
<http://www.interbeing.space>
www.interbeing.space
Giselle Charbonnier
+49 (0)163 834 1924
Bevernstr. 6, 10997, Berlin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--
Joanna Malinowska
Clinical Hypnotherapist
www.myhypno.com.au
www.self-hypnosis.com.au
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Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (12) . Top ^1dRe: Orders of love and trauma Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:22 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Joanna Malinowska" malinowska_joanna Thank you, Christine,
I did not understand the words, I just saw the body language, the tone of
the voice and the action.
There is something I have to say, "
*TO VIOLATE THE HIERARCHY IS LEADING TO DEATH". Yes, this is the case,
especially in totalitarian regime. Many people sacrificed their lives
challenging hierarchy. Do we call them heroes? Hierarchy has to be
challenged when it goes wrong. Otherwise we would be like a herd of sheep
blindly following the main ram. This leads to death and destruction, and
even genocide. *
*I am not saying that against Bert or or to undermine his past greatness. I
honor him and his attribution to humanity. It just seems that his Soul is
not connected with his body and mind anymore. He is an old man now and a
human, like we all. We will all get old and we may lose this connection.
What is surprising that anybody still stayed inside the room... Somehow, we
do behave like a herd of sheep...*
*With Love*
*Joanna*
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 6:51 PM, Christine Ruettimann
christine.sarena@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
> Dear ones
>
> Watching this is also rather dirturbing to me. What comes to my mind is
> that human conduct is ever unreliable. The way the "constellation" was
> facilitated was full of ego and without any respect and sensitivity from
> both Sophie and Bert.
>
> for those who don't understand German or Russian I give the German
> translation:
>
> *Sophie forces the young woman to say to her mother: "You are here the big
> one". The daughter says to Sophie that she cannot say it, because she has
> so many problems. Still Sophie tries to force her. After the daughter
> becomes more irritated Sophie tries the same procedure with the mother. She
> orders her to say to the daughter: "You are here the little one". She can't
> say it either. Sophie says "You HAVE TO honour the hierarchy", then being
> frustrated walkes away. Bert says "This was a good demonstration what it
> means to violate the hierarchy (ranking system)." Then someone of the group
> says something and Bert asks three times. "Who was talking here?". When he
> sees the woman he says "Get out of the door!" Then he says to all: "We
> don't tolerate it if someone arrogates to intervene here!"*
> *Sitting down he says two times: "Now I made clear WHO is the big one
> here!" Sophie says: "It's about life and death. TO VIOLATE THE HIERARCHY
> IS LEADING TO DEATH". ....... (resulting in dead silence)*
>
> We all make mistakes. But in my opinion the *attitude* that was
> demonstrated here is very harmful to the wonderful gift of constellation
> work.
>
> Christine Rüttimann
> Switzerland
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Joanna Malinowska joanna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]" <
> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb am 4:24 Mittwoch, 19.April
> 2017:
>
>
>
> Dear Giselle,
> Yes, I could not believe my eyes. The girl was hit with a microphone, and
> quite hard. Yet what was happening before was also forced. It was visible
> that mother and daughter were connected before Sophie was trying to force
> some words on the daughter. The mother smiled, the daughter was chatting
> with her. Then they became more and more rigid and disconnected. If there
> was trauma there, then more trauma has been added. It was also brake of
> trust, I wonder if this girl will be open to any therapy in the future.
> This was not what Family Constellations is about as it was not love (and
> no compassion), even no respect, and definitely nothing from the Knowing
> Field. It was just acting from the power and superiority.
> When it comes to the TRUTH, nobody holds it. The person can be hold by the
> TRUTH when he or she is open to it. Then the TRUTH speaks through him /
> her. We can call TRUTH different names, God, or Spirit or just
> Unconditional Love, or Universe. Unfortunately, the individuals who are
> touch by TRUTH quite offer become grandiose and take it for their personal
> greatness. And this is how they loose connection with TRUTH. Or there are
> some other reasons, sickness or old age, and they forget. The TRUTH stays
> and evolves, and we can be always grateful to them for showing us the way,
> even if they do not lead anymore.
> Thank you fo sharing.
> With LOve
> Joanna
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:19 AM, 'Heather Embree'
> heather@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@
> yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for sharing this, Giselle. That is disturbing for me personally. I
> have seen facilitators use physical contact with clients and it’s an act of
> trying to put one in place of respecting the order with a notion of
> punishment. For me, that scene is publically humiliating and shuts down the
> younger person from her truth and feelings. There are real cases of
> parental abuse that may not be addressed (I am only going by body language
> here as I don’t understand German or Russian), and it an go to further
> silence someone from the truth of the issues.
>
> It’s not my style and rather for me the movement with any discord is
> helping each person see the other’s humanity, personal violence and learn
> how to self-care or self-protect in the face of it.
>
> Thank you for sharing.
>
> Heather
>
> From: ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com
> <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:ConstellationTalk@
> yahoogroups.com <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 8:40 AM
> To: ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Orders of love and trauma
>
> Dear ones,
>
> I have been wanting to connect with you about this for some months…
> Someone sent me a video from Bert which I find quite disturbing. Since
> then, I have mixed feelings... I would really appreciate you let me know
> your feelings/thoughts about it.
>
> We know the truth he - and Sophie - are holding and yet, in my heart, and
> as a trauma therapist, I can’t accept this violence, which also seems
> unnecessary. There is some kind of fundamentalism about the orders of love
> that seems to be very disconnected. I really wonder about the effects this
> has… I could say more, but I would really love if you could let me know
> what your thoughts are… The video is in German and Russian… but if you
> can’t understand the words, at least you can see the faces and the moment
> Sophie hits a participant with the microphone, and, afterwards Bert sends
> out someone who complains about this...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=hjp7Frr3QjQ
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ>
>
> With love and gratitude,
>
> Giselle
>
> <http://www.interbeing.space>
> www.interbeing.space
>
> Giselle Charbonnier
> +49 (0)163 834 1924
> Bevernstr. 6, 10997, Berlin
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> --
> Joanna Malinowska
> Clinical Hypnotherapist
> www.myhypno.com.au
> www.self-hypnosis.com.au
> Mobile 0412 092 972
>
>
>
>
--
Joanna Malinowska
Clinical Hypnotherapist
www.myhypno.com.au
www.self-hypnosis.com.au
Mobile 0412 092 972
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (12) . Top ^1eRe: Orders of love and trauma Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:33 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Gertrud Yasutake" What I see watching this video clip:
The constellation takes place in Russia.
The constellation is done sitting down in a row of seating behind another row of seated people.
This location gives a sense of being cramped and not allotted the proper space for whatever issue is addressed.
The facilitator stands and moves around while the representatives sit and cannot move much, the height difference.
At some point there is some jovial rapport between the two representatives.
The facilitator does a lot of finger pointing.
The daughter's representative is locked in a long look with the facilitator, looking up at her with a set and closed face. She gets hit on the head by the facilitator with the mike (an instrument of power).
The sitting women have no support, male or otherwise. The female facilitator HAS support from a male.
The male steps in and sends another woman out of the room.
Words of life and death are spoken.
Some interpretation: The constellation has become a Russia issue. Russia has a very long history of repression, first in the history of serfdom and later in the history of communism. As Hunter Beaumont explained in one of his workshops, in many countries that suffer violence, the men become decimated through war and other terrors. The women have to become the survivors and strong in carrying on.
The constellation shows three kind of reactions to tyranny: the ones that disappear, the ones that try to cooperate (mother’s rep) and the ones that rebel. Sophie and Bert were part of that constellation.
Gertrud Yasutake
________________________________
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Giselle Charbonnier gisellecharbonnier@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 8:40 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Orders of love and trauma
Dear ones,
I have been wanting to connect with you about this for some months… Someone sent me a video from Bert which I find quite disturbing. Since then, I have mixed feelings... I would really appreciate you let me know your feelings/thoughts about it.
We know the truth he - and Sophie - are holding and yet, in my heart, and as a trauma therapist, I can’t accept this violence, which also seems unnecessary. There is some kind of fundamentalism about the orders of love that seems to be very disconnected. I really wonder about the effects this has… I could say more, but I would really love if you could let me know what your thoughts are… The video is in German and Russian… but if you can’t understand the words, at least you can see the faces and the moment Sophie hits a participant with the microphone, and, afterwards Bert sends out someone who complains about this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ
[https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVP.LhPIvLFpm3ckhMNxbB59ugEsDh&pid=Api]<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ>
Видео 2<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ>
www.youtube.com
"Новые" техники семейных расстановок показанные Софией и Бертом Хеллингером на семинаре ...
With love and gratitude,
Giselle
[cid:9591B616-6606-4A53-89F9-A0549E7ECF5B@fritz.box]
www.interbeing.space<http://www.interbeing.space>
Integracion Personal : Técnicas Psicofisicas y Sistémicas ...<http://www.interbeing.space/>
www.interbeing.space
El ser humano es una totalidad indivisible -cuerpo, mente y alma- e inseparable del contexto mayor que incluye sus vínculos con otros seres humanos y con su entorno.
Giselle Charbonnier
+49 (0)163 834 1924
Bevernstr. 6, 10997, Berlin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (12) . Top ^1fRe: Orders of love and trauma Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:56 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Janice Crawford" A grateful beneficiary of Hellinger's work (in fact I've even written a
very personal book about that), I'm also grateful for this discussion.
While I have sometimes ultimately gained a great deal from moments of
forcefulness from a facilitator, I do feel that it appears the client was
put in a primal survival/soul conflict here The mother reps leaning into
the client's space with needs that were oblivious to the clients reaction
were energetically aggressively (predatory) - though at moments loving.
And it appeared to me that instinctually the client wanted to push away
(fight) and run (flee) rather than (collapse) and submit energetically
(die). And then she was attacked with the microphone...
It is Hellinger 101, but perhaps suggesting they stand and find their
places and then giving the mother some resources might have allowed a next
step to unfold.
I do also know that there is the story of years ago H wrestling a very tall
much younger man to the ground for not bowing to his father. Years later
that man was a sensitive rep of my grandfather in a constellation.
So for me one of the questions that comes out of this excellent discussion
involves the interface of instinctual response, ego narrative protection
and soul movement. Jan Crawford
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Gertrud Yasutake gy1800@xxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
> What I see watching this video clip:
> The constellation takes place in Russia.
> The constellation is done sitting down in a row of seating behind another
> row of seated people.
> This location gives a sense of being cramped and not allotted the proper
> space for whatever issue is addressed.
> The facilitator stands and moves around while the representatives sit and
> cannot move much, the height difference.
> At some point there is some jovial rapport between the two
> representatives.
> The facilitator does a lot of finger pointing.
> The daughter's representative is locked in a long look with the
> facilitator, looking up at her with a set and closed face. She gets hit on
> the head by the facilitator with the mike (an instrument of power).
> The sitting women have no support, male or otherwise. The female
> facilitator HAS support from a male.
> The male steps in and sends another woman out of the room.
> Words of life and death are spoken.
> Some interpretation: The constellation has become a Russia issue. Russia
> has a very long history of repression, first in the history of serfdom and
> later in the history of communism. As Hunter Beaumont explained in one of
> his workshops, in many countries that suffer violence, the men become
> decimated through war and other terrors. The women have to become the
> survivors and strong in carrying on.
> The constellation shows three kind of reactions to tyranny: the ones that
> disappear, the ones that try to cooperate (mother’s rep) and the ones that
> rebel. Sophie and Bert were part of that constellation.
>
> Gertrud Yasutake
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> on behalf of Giselle Charbonnier gisellecharbonnier@xxxxxxxxx
> [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 8:40 AM
> To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Orders of love and trauma
>
>
>
> Dear ones,
>
> I have been wanting to connect with you about this for some months…
> Someone sent me a video from Bert which I find quite disturbing. Since
> then, I have mixed feelings... I would really appreciate you let me know
> your feelings/thoughts about it.
> We know the truth he - and Sophie - are holding and yet, in my heart, and
> as a trauma therapist, I can’t accept this violence, which also seems
> unnecessary. There is some kind of fundamentalism about the orders of love
> that seems to be very disconnected. I really wonder about the effects this
> has… I could say more, but I would really love if you could let me know
> what your thoughts are… The video is in German and Russian… but if you
> can’t understand the words, at least you can see the faces and the moment
> Sophie hits a participant with the microphone, and, afterwards Bert sends
> out someone who complains about this...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ
> [https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVP.LhPIvLFpm3ckhMNxbB59ugEsDh&pid=Api]<
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ>
>
> Видео 2<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ>
> www.youtube.com
> "Новые" техники семейных расстановок показанные Софией и Бертом
> Хеллингером на семинаре ...
>
>
> With love and gratitude,
> Giselle
> [cid:9591B616-6606-4A53-89F9-A0549E7ECF5B@fritz.box]
> www.interbeing.space<http://www.interbeing.space>
> Integracion Personal : Técnicas Psicofisicas y Sistémicas ...<
> http://www.interbeing.space/>
> www.interbeing.space
> El ser humano es una totalidad indivisible -cuerpo, mente y alma- e
> inseparable del contexto mayor que incluye sus vínculos con otros seres
> humanos y con su entorno.
>
> Giselle Charbonnier
> +49 (0)163 834 1924 <+49%20163%208341924>
> Bevernstr. 6, 10997, Berlin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (12) . Top ^1gRe: Orders of love and trauma Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:33 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Leslie Nipps" I’ve only experienced Bert and Sophie Hellinger directly once, in Mexico City in 2015. After one day, it became very clear to me that clients were chosen for either the “love bomb” category or the “shame” category. It felt very much to me like a structured (if unconscious) strategy to assert authority and create an intense sense of belonging. The love bomb work was often amazing, and I am still affected by the beautiful, swift, non-judgmental resolutions that I saw. The shame interactions were hard to watch and surrounded by compliance behaviors that I was really disturbed by.
And, in the community around the Hellingers now, there is a teaching circulating around how hierarchy means that the authority, once followed, cannot be questioned, that’s it’s a violation of the Orders of Love. I’ve had these arguments in other forums. I consider it a massive misunderstanding of the Order of Love with respect to Seniority. There is a core teaching there that is really important, but it’s been distorted.
I think it’s important to name these cleanly, but without too much energy or intensity. If we are expending too much energy on resisting this, we can get swept up in the victim/perpetrator dance ourselves.
So glad for the perspectives on this list!
The Rev. Leslie Nipps
Convivium Constellations - Founder, Practitioner & Trainer
“Trust as a Way of Life…”
www.conviviumconstellations.com
"Hasten to that which supports." - The I Ching
On Apr 19, 2017, at 9:56 AM, Janice Crawford jcrawford4000@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
A grateful beneficiary of Hellinger's work (in fact I've even written a very personal book about that), I'm also grateful for this discussion.
While I have sometimes ultimately gained a great deal from moments of forcefulness from a facilitator, I do feel that it appears the client was put in a primal survival/soul conflict here The mother reps leaning into the client's space with needs that were oblivious to the clients reaction were energetically aggressively (predatory) - though at moments loving. And it appeared to me that instinctually the client wanted to push away (fight) and run (flee) rather than (collapse) and submit energetically (die). And then she was attacked with the microphone...
It is Hellinger 101, but perhaps suggesting they stand and find their places and then giving the mother some resources might have allowed a next step to unfold.
I do also know that there is the story of years ago H wrestling a very tall much younger man to the ground for not bowing to his father. Years later that man was a sensitive rep of my grandfather in a constellation.
So for me one of the questions that comes out of this excellent discussion involves the interface of instinctual response, ego narrative protection and soul movement. Jan Crawford
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Gertrud Yasutake gy1800@xxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
What I see watching this video clip:
The constellation takes place in Russia.
The constellation is done sitting down in a row of seating behind another row of seated people.
This location gives a sense of being cramped and not allotted the proper space for whatever issue is addressed.
The facilitator stands and moves around while the representatives sit and cannot move much, the height difference.
At some point there is some jovial rapport between the two representatives.
The facilitator does a lot of finger pointing.
The daughter's representative is locked in a long look with the facilitator, looking up at her with a set and closed face. She gets hit on the head by the facilitator with the mike (an instrument of power).
The sitting women have no support, male or otherwise. The female facilitator HAS support from a male.
The male steps in and sends another woman out of the room.
Words of life and death are spoken.
Some interpretation: The constellation has become a Russia issue. Russia has a very long history of repression, first in the history of serfdom and later in the history of communism. As Hunter Beaumont explained in one of his workshops, in many countries that suffer violence, the men become decimated through war and other terrors. The women have to become the survivors and strong in carrying on.
The constellation shows three kind of reactions to tyranny: the ones that disappear, the ones that try to cooperate (mother’s rep) and the ones that rebel. Sophie and Bert were part of that constellation.
Gertrud Yasutake
________________________________
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Giselle Charbonnier gisellecharbonnier@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 8:40 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Orders of love and trauma
Dear ones,
I have been wanting to connect with you about this for some months… Someone sent me a video from Bert which I find quite disturbing. Since then, I have mixed feelings... I would really appreciate you let me know your feelings/thoughts about it.
We know the truth he - and Sophie - are holding and yet, in my heart, and as a trauma therapist, I can’t accept this violence, which also seems unnecessary. There is some kind of fundamentalism about the orders of love that seems to be very disconnected. I really wonder about the effects this has… I could say more, but I would really love if you could let me know what your thoughts are… The video is in German and Russian… but if you can’t understand the words, at least you can see the faces and the moment Sophie hits a participant with the microphone, and, afterwards Bert sends out someone who complains about this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ
[https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVP.LhPIvLFpm3ckhMNxbB59ugEsDh&pid=Api]<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ>
Видео 2<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ>
www.youtube.com
"Новые" техники семейных расстановок показанные Софией и Бертом Хеллингером на семинаре ...
With love and gratitude,
Giselle
[cid:9591B616-6606-4A53-89F9-A0549E7ECF5B@fritz.box]
www.interbeing.space<http://www.interbeing.space>
Integracion Personal : Técnicas Psicofisicas y Sistémicas ...<http://www.interbeing.space/>
www.interbeing.space
El ser humano es una totalidad indivisible -cuerpo, mente y alma- e inseparable del contexto mayor que incluye sus vínculos con otros seres humanos y con su entorno.
Giselle Charbonnier
+49 (0)163 834 1924
Bevernstr. 6, 10997, Berlin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (12) . Top ^2aWhat is Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:12 pm (PDT) . Posted by: Springtime Greetings from Arizona !
In response to Giselle's understandable discomfort, I am reminded of Bert's
early teachings which still resonate for me, which involves, simply "
Acknowledging What Is " and he wrote a book with that title. And so for me,
what is that Bert and Sophie have often physically, emotionally,and
spiritually abused, re-traumatized and publicly humiliated more than a few
trusting people in pain, who have appealed to them for help. For me, as a
trauma specialist, this has everything to do with power over and not much to
offer in the genuine interest of healing. As a result I have taken some
distance for many years now, and Bert's early teachings remain a profound
source of inspiration for me, still.
Watching this video, my heart hurt for many reasons. I find it quite
remarkable that thousands will travel far and pay good money to subject
themselves to such abuse and then passively sit, in unexamined,complicit,
silence,for years of top down arrogance and exploitation. In this case, the one
brave voice of protest was excluded. Is this not fascism? Human nature, I
sadly suppose...along with a persistent belief is that there has to be some
bon-bon somewhere deep within such blatant ca-.ca.
Individual discernment is so desperately needed...within what has become
a cult of iconic personalities, and it is also important to not give up on
the wealth of teachings that Bert's philosophical perspective has offered
for so many of us in profound, and for me, life changing ways. I so hope
that no one will ever take any licence to physically, emotionally or
spiritually abuse anyone ever, in blind loyal imitation of such clueless behavior as
we see on this video and many other instances, as well. Please bear in
mind that one of the most important tenets of trauma work is to never
overwhelm an already overwhelmed client and many, if not most, who come to SCW have
some history of trauma. And for me, after working for many decades, with
traumatized people in pain,my heart has come to understand that it is
often more important to be kind, than to be right.
All for now,
Anngwyn St.just Ph.D
_www.acst-international.com_ (http://www.acst-international.com)
http://anngwyn.wisrville.orgReply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^2bRe: What is Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:23 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Linda Conyard" Beautiful Anngwyn xxxx
> On 19 Apr 2017, at 4:12 pm, anngwyn@xxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
> Springtime Greetings from Arizona !
>
> In response to Giselle's understandable discomfort, I am reminded of Bert's early teachings which still resonate for me, which involves, simply " Acknowledging What Is " and he wrote a book with that title. And so for me, what is that Bert and Sophie have often physically, emotionally,and spiritually abused, re-traumatized and publicly humiliated more than a few trusting people in pain, who have appealed to them for help. For me, as a trauma specialist, this has everything to do with power over and not much to offer in the genuine interest of healing. As a result I have taken some distance for many years now, and Bert's early teachings remain a profound source of inspiration for me, still.
> Watching this video, my heart hurt for many reasons. I find it quite remarkable that thousands will travel far and pay good money to subject themselves to such abuse and then passively sit, in unexamined,complicit, silence,for years of top down arrogance and exploitation. In this case, the one brave voice of protest was excluded. Is this not fascism? Human nature, I sadly suppose...along with a persistent belief is that there has to be some bon-bon somewhere deep within such blatant ca-.ca.
>
> Individual discernment is so desperately needed...within what has become a cult of iconic personalities, and it is also important to not give up on the wealth of teachings that Bert's philosophical perspective has offered for so many of us in profound, and for me, life changing ways. I so hope that no one will ever take any licence to physically, emotionally or spiritually abuse anyone ever, in blind loyal imitation of such clueless behavior as we see on this video and many other instances, as well. Please bear in mind that one of the most important tenets of trauma work is to never overwhelm an already overwhelmed client and many, if not most, who come to SCW have some history of trauma. And for me, after working for many decades, with traumatized people in pain,my heart has come to understand that it is often more important to be kind, than to be right.
>
> All for now,
>
> Anngwyn St.just Ph.D
> www.acst-international.com <http://www.acst-international.com/>
> http://anngwyn.wisrville.org <http://anngwyn.wisrville.org/>
>
>
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^2cRe: What is Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:27 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Deborah Crowe" Thank you Anngwyn.
It seems a combination of the "Emperor's new clothes" and 'Don't throw the
baby out with the bathwater" are appropriate here.
Warm regards
Deborah
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 6:27 PM, Linda Conyard linda.conyard@xxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
> Beautiful Anngwyn xxxx
>
> On 19 Apr 2017, at 4:12 pm, anngwyn@xxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <
> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
> Springtime Greetings from Arizona !
>
> In response to Giselle's understandable discomfort, I am reminded of
> Bert's early teachings which still resonate for me, which involves, simply
> " *Acknowledging What Is* " and he wrote a book with that title. And so
> for me, what is that Bert and Sophie have often physically,
> emotionally,and spiritually abused, re-traumatized and publicly
> humiliated more than a few trusting people in pain, who have appealed to
> them for help. For me, as a trauma specialist, this has everything to do
> with power over and not much to offer in the genuine interest of healing.
> As a result I have taken some distance for many years now, and Bert's
> early teachings remain a profound source of inspiration for me, still.
> Watching this video, my heart hurt for many reasons. I find it quite
> remarkable that thousands will travel far and pay good money to subject
> themselves to such abuse and then passively sit, in unexamined,complicit,
> silence,for years of top down arrogance and exploitation. In this case, the
> one brave voice of protest was excluded. Is this not fascism? Human
> nature, I sadly suppose...along with a persistent belief is that there
> has to be some bon-bon somewhere deep within such blatant ca-.ca.
>
> Individual discernment is so desperately needed...within what has become
> a cult of iconic personalities, and it is also important to not give up on
> the wealth of teachings that Bert's philosophical perspective has offered
> for so many of us in profound, and for me, life changing ways. I so hope
> that no one will ever take any licence to physically, emotionally or
> spiritually abuse anyone ever, in blind loyal imitation of such clueless
> behavior as we see on this video and many other instances, as well. Please
> bear in mind that one of the most important tenets of trauma work is to
> never overwhelm an already overwhelmed client and many, if not most, who
> come to SCW have some history of trauma. And for me, after working for
> many decades, with traumatized people in pain,my heart has come
> to understand that it is often more important to be kind, than to be right.
>
>
> All for now,
>
> Anngwyn St.just Ph.D
> www.acst-international.com
> http://anngwyn.wisrville.org
>
>
>
>
--
Deborah Crowe
www.deborahcrowe.info
*+64 (0) 21 776769*
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^2dRe: What is Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:36 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Eimear O'Neill" Alice Miller, Polish-Jewish therapist, researcher and artist should be
suggested reading for working in family and systemic constellations. Her
work challenges any fundamentalist belief in the Orders of Love while
respecting history, the embodied unconscious, and the damage wrought by
parents and those in authority over others. She uncovers the roots of
fascism in childhood traumas re-enacted at collective levels. It is at the
place where there is power difference in relationship that most care needs
to be taken and where most traumatic damage is caused and most re-wounding
happens. For me as a trauma therapist, constellations training with someone
working from an indigenous perspective, supported power literacy, humility
in the face of mystery, respect for ‘resistance’ and trust in the Field.
Resistance reveals the other does not feel safe. Park your ego outside.
With trust in the Field, you don’t need to push, interpret from your
perspective and certainly not apply physical, emotional or epistemological
violence to get what you believe is a “good outcome”. We each bring our own
wounds when we step into this work. As Rumi reminds us, we each, however
lauded by others, need to “Keep an eye on the bandaged place.”
Constellations work is moving into a more self-reflective phase. I agree
with Anngywn and Deborah… in terms of publicly naming imperious
arrogance…and of honouring Hellingers’ contributions while developing our
collective capacity for understanding the historic and familial/familiar
patterns of dominance and abuse. I’d add that speaking truth to power is
important at multiple levels, to maintain our humanity in the face of the
normalized abuses of power by governments, corporations and institutions so
rampant right now. Systemic constellations helps us see those patterns. We
need to support each other in refusing to stay quiet or normalise them. Our
ancestors, past and future, are with us on this one.
Warmly
Eimear
Eimear O'Neill PhD
www.eimearoneill.com
‘If we surrendered/ to earth’s intelligence, we could rise up rooted, like
trees."Rainer Maria Rilke:
On 19 April 2017 at 06:19, Deborah Crowe deborahcrowe@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
> Thank you Anngwyn.
> It seems a combination of the "Emperor's new clothes" and 'Don't throw the
> baby out with the bathwater" are appropriate here.
> Warm regards
> Deborah
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 6:27 PM, Linda Conyard linda.conyard@xxxxxxxxxxx
> [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Beautiful Anngwyn xxxx
>>
>> On 19 Apr 2017, at 4:12 pm, anngwyn@xxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <
>> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Springtime Greetings from Arizona !
>>
>> In response to Giselle's understandable discomfort, I am reminded of
>> Bert's early teachings which still resonate for me, which involves, simply
>> " *Acknowledging What Is* " and he wrote a book with that title. And so
>> for me, what is that Bert and Sophie have often physically,
>> emotionally,and spiritually abused, re-traumatized and publicly
>> humiliated more than a few trusting people in pain, who have appealed to
>> them for help. For me, as a trauma specialist, this has everything to do
>> with power over and not much to offer in the genuine interest of healing.
>> As a result I have taken some distance for many years now, and Bert's
>> early teachings remain a profound source of inspiration for me, still.
>> Watching this video, my heart hurt for many reasons. I find it quite
>> remarkable that thousands will travel far and pay good money to subject
>> themselves to such abuse and then passively sit, in unexamined,complicit,
>> silence,for years of top down arrogance and exploitation. In this case, the
>> one brave voice of protest was excluded. Is this not fascism? Human
>> nature, I sadly suppose...along with a persistent belief is that there
>> has to be some bon-bon somewhere deep within such blatant ca-.ca.
>>
>> Individual discernment is so desperately needed...within what has become
>> a cult of iconic personalities, and it is also important to not give up on
>> the wealth of teachings that Bert's philosophical perspective has offered
>> for so many of us in profound, and for me, life changing ways. I so hope
>> that no one will ever take any licence to physically, emotionally or
>> spiritually abuse anyone ever, in blind loyal imitation of such clueless
>> behavior as we see on this video and many other instances, as well. Please
>> bear in mind that one of the most important tenets of trauma work is to
>> never overwhelm an already overwhelmed client and many, if not most, who
>> come to SCW have some history of trauma. And for me, after working for
>> many decades, with traumatized people in pain,my heart has come
>> to understand that it is often more important to be kind, than to be right.
>>
>>
>> All for now,
>>
>> Anngwyn St.just Ph.D
>> www.acst-international.com
>> http://anngwyn.wisrville.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Deborah Crowe
> www.deborahcrowe.info
> *+64 (0) 21 776769 <+64%2021%20776%20769>*
>
>
>
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^3Physical harm by Perpetrator Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:15 am (PDT) . Posted by: "bizden titiz" bizdentitiz İ guess this group is not aware of the constellation Ms SH where
Jumped up and down on a man saying that was what he deserved
And needed.
Happy this young woman's cranium is not cracked,
Then ribs were broken as i hear from witnesses!
Warm regards,
Bizden
> On 19 Apr 2017, at 11:22, Joanna Malinowska joanna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Thank you, Christine,
> I did not understand the words, I just saw the body language, the tone of the voice and the action.
> There is something I have to say, "TO VIOLATE THE HIERARCHY IS LEADING TO DEATH". Yes, this is the case, especially in totalitarian regime. Many people sacrificed their lives challenging hierarchy. Do we call them heroes? Hierarchy has to be challenged when it goes wrong. Otherwise we would be like a herd of sheep blindly following the main ram. This leads to death and destruction, and even genocide.
> I am not saying that against Bert or or to undermine his past greatness. I honor him and his attribution to humanity. It just seems that his Soul is not connected with his body and mind anymore. He is an old man now and a human, like we all. We will all get old and we may lose this connection. What is surprising that anybody still stayed inside the room... Somehow, we do behave like a herd of sheep...
> With Love
> Joanna
>
>> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 6:51 PM, Christine Ruettimann christine.sarena@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> Dear ones
>>
>> Watching this is also rather dirturbing to me. What comes to my mind is that human conduct is ever unreliable. The way the "constellation" was facilitated was full of ego and without any respect and sensitivity from both Sophie and Bert.
>>
>> for those who don't understand German or Russian I give the German translation:
>>
>> Sophie forces the young woman to say to her mother: "You are here the big one". The daughter says to Sophie that she cannot say it, because she has so many problems. Still Sophie tries to force her. After the daughter becomes more irritated Sophie tries the same procedure with the mother. She orders her to say to the daughter: "You are here the little one". She can't say it either. Sophie says "You HAVE TO honour the hierarchy", then being frustrated walkes away. Bert says "This was a good demonstration what it means to violate the hierarchy (ranking system)." Then someone of the group says something and Bert asks three times. "Who was talking here?". When he sees the woman he says "Get out of the door!" Then he says to all: "We don't tolerate it if someone arrogates to intervene here!"
>> Sitting down he says two times: "Now I made clear WHO is the big one here!" Sophie says: "It's about life and death. TO VIOLATE THE HIERARCHY IS LEADING TO DEATH". ....... (resulting in dead silence)
>>
>> We all make mistakes. But in my opinion the attitude that was demonstrated here is very harmful to the wonderful gift of constellation work.
>>
>> Christine Rüttimann
>> Switzerland
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Joanna Malinowska joanna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]" <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb am 4:24 Mittwoch, 19.April 2017:
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Giselle,
>> Yes, I could not believe my eyes. The girl was hit with a microphone, and quite hard. Yet what was happening before was also forced. It was visible that mother and daughter were connected before Sophie was trying to force some words on the daughter. The mother smiled, the daughter was chatting with her. Then they became more and more rigid and disconnected. If there was trauma there, then more trauma has been added. It was also brake of trust, I wonder if this girl will be open to any therapy in the future.
>> This was not what Family Constellations is about as it was not love (and no compassion), even no respect, and definitely nothing from the Knowing Field. It was just acting from the power and superiority.
>> When it comes to the TRUTH, nobody holds it. The person can be hold by the TRUTH when he or she is open to it. Then the TRUTH speaks through him / her. We can call TRUTH different names, God, or Spirit or just Unconditional Love, or Universe. Unfortunately, the individuals who are touch by TRUTH quite offer become grandiose and take it for their personal greatness. And this is how they loose connection with TRUTH. Or there are some other reasons, sickness or old age, and they forget. The TRUTH stays and evolves, and we can be always grateful to them for showing us the way, even if they do not lead anymore.
>> Thank you fo sharing.
>> With LOve
>> Joanna
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:19 AM, 'Heather Embree' heather@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for sharing this, Giselle. That is disturbing for me personally. I have seen facilitators use physical contact with clients and it’s an act of trying to put one in place of respecting the order with a notion of punishment. For me, that scene is publically humiliating and shuts down the younger person from her truth and feelings. There are real cases of parental abuse that may not be addressed (I am only going by body language here as I don’t understand German or Russian), and it an go to further silence someone from the truth of the issues.
>>
>> It’s not my style and rather for me the movement with any discord is helping each person see the other’s humanity, personal violence and learn how to self-care or self-protect in the face of it.
>>
>> Thank you for sharing.
>>
>> Heather
>>
>> From: ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ConstellationTalk@ yahoogroups.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 8:40 AM
>> To: ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com
>> Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Orders of love and trauma
>>
>> Dear ones,
>>
>> I have been wanting to connect with you about this for some months… Someone sent me a video from Bert which I find quite disturbing. Since then, I have mixed feelings... I would really appreciate you let me know your feelings/thoughts about it.
>>
>> We know the truth he - and Sophie - are holding and yet, in my heart, and as a trauma therapist, I can’t accept this violence, which also seems unnecessary. There is some kind of fundamentalism about the orders of love that seems to be very disconnected. I really wonder about the effects this has… I could say more, but I would really love if you could let me know what your thoughts are… The video is in German and Russian… but if you can’t understand the words, at least you can see the faces and the moment Sophie hits a participant with the microphone, and, afterwards Bert sends out someone who complains about this...
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=hjp7Frr3QjQ
>>
>> With love and gratitude,
>>
>> Giselle
>>
>> <http://www.interbeing.space>
>> www.interbeing.space
>>
>> Giselle Charbonnier
>> +49 (0)163 834 1924
>> Bevernstr. 6, 10997, Berlin
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Joanna Malinowska
>> Clinical Hypnotherapist
>> www.myhypno.com.au
>> www.self-hypnosis.com.au
>> Mobile 0412 092 972
>
>
>
> --
> Joanna Malinowska
> Clinical Hypnotherapist
> www.myhypno.com.au
> www.self-hypnosis.com.au
> Mobile 0412 092 972
>
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (1) . Top ^4aFwd: Orders of love and trauma Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:11 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Chuck Cogliandro" mkdrum1
To be fair, not being present in the room with the field, the issue and the teaching, as well as not speaking either of the languages, does not support me understanding what’s taking place in the video.
That being said, I’ve never worked with an energy of confrontation like this, nor have I seen such an approach be effective in healing. I have experienced re-wounding and an amplification of my defenses when such an approach was taken with me in a healing environment. I’ve also never seen my teachers work in this way, and they trained with Hellinger and his first generation of trainers.
While there have been times I’ve felt guided to invite the client in different ways to consider that their healing is on the other side of their resistance, and sometimes suggest ways they might approach gaining a new perspective, I always trust that their soul knows how much they are capable to move at any time. In my experience, invitation to movement leads to lasting change better than does coercion.
peace,
Chuck Cogliandro
Decatur, GA U.S.Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (3) . Top ^4bRe: Fwd: Orders of love and trauma Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:10 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Barbara Morgan" I want to endorse the first two lines of Chuck's email. I think a note of
caution is needed when we are watching a video or listening to someone
else's second or third hand reporting of a situation. If we are not
actually in the field ourselves, how can we pass fair judgement on what
happened? As Leslie points out, we are at risk of whipping ourselves up
into some kind of frenzy and becoming perpetrators ourselves in our
criticism of the perceived 'perpetrators' and what we imagine has happened.
It is very difficult to pass judgement when we are not fully in the field
ourselves. I learnt this lesson myself a long time ago. The reporting of
Bert hitting someone in the chest is particularly difficult to make a
judgement on. Some kinds of trauma therapy do include hitting people in the
chest. I have seen that in the past. It activates a kind of energetic flow
in a previously dissociated or constricted client.
Looking at this video I would tentatively suggest that maybe Sophie got
caught in the field and was trying to force an issue which would not be
forced. And I think we're all at risk of getting caught in the field if we
are to be anything other than ineffectual facilitators afraid to do
anything that might upset the client or the group. Noticing when it happens
is the key here. Not easy.
Trauma is such a hot issue and the range of approaches to it is vast. I
don't claim to have the answers as to the best approach. We each do what we
can at the time and take care to continue to do our own personal work and
inform ourselves of various ways of dealing with it as best we can. Looking
back on my own personal journey with trauma I can see that I repeatedly
unwittingly stepped into a re-traumatising field. I will never know if
those experiences were helpful or not, but for sure they were not
permanently damaging to me. What I can say is that I am strengthened by all
of my experiences of both therapy and constellation work and some of the
most difficult and painful have been the greatest learnings for me.
I personally have worked 4 times with Bert and each time I found the
experience profound and extremely helpful. I haven't worked personally with
Sophie so I can't comment fully on her approach.
Anngwyn's words about 'individual discernment' were very helpful but how do
I learn to discern? For me, it's by stepping into those difficult places.
Good wishes to all
Barbara
On 19 April 2017 at 15:11, Chuck Cogliandro chuck@xxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
> To be fair, not being present in the room with the field, the issue and
> the teaching, as well as not speaking either of the languages, does not
> support me understanding what’s taking place in the video.
>
> That being said, I’ve never worked with an energy of confrontation like
> this, nor have I seen such an approach be effective in healing. I have
> experienced re-wounding and an amplification of my defenses when such an
> approach was taken with me in a healing environment. I’ve also never seen
> my teachers work in this way, and they trained with Hellinger and his first
> generation of trainers.
>
> While there have been times I’ve felt guided to invite the client in
> different ways to consider that their healing is on the other side of their
> resistance, and sometimes suggest ways they might approach gaining a new
> perspective, I always trust that their soul knows how much they are capable
> to move at any time. In my experience, invitation to movement leads to
> lasting change better than does coercion.
>
> peace,
> Chuck Cogliandro
> Decatur, GA U.S.
>
>
>
--
Barbara Morgan
Family Constellations Trainer, Supervisor & Practitioner
Editor of
The Knowing Field
International Constellations Journal
www.cominghome.org.uk
www.theknowingfield.com
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (3) . Top ^4cRe: Fwd: Orders of love and trauma Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:35 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Julio Príncipe" Dear colleagues, I felt my own body (mind and heart, too) hurted.
To me, it's a sad reminder of our own limitations and ego. And when I write
"sad" is a kind of judgement about what someone it's supossed to be/do as a
helper (therapist, consultant, etc,). And probably I'm loyal with the
teachers in my family when I do that.
So, I try to go beyond and look at me and identify what reflects to my own
inner experiences and voices, many times "forced" by myself, many times
"self-hitted", many times in my own inner victim/perpetrator dynamic,
trying to give a place to what hurts and create pain. And also what are the
systemic consequences of this reality in my role and Presence as a
Facilitator.
I see also the consequences and limitations of what "Orders of Love" means
for everyone, specially if we put a certain model in the first place, and
the person (the Client) in the last place.
At the end of this post, I reminde to myself what Roman philsopher
Terencium said "I am human, and I think that nothing of that which is
human is alien to me".
Hugs from Peru,
Julio
PS.- Thanks to Giselle for open up to this beautiful and supportive
Community this topic, and also I'm grateful for all what I learn from
different perspectives and experiences.
2017-04-19 16:10 GMT-05:00 Barbara Morgan theknowingfield@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>
>
> I want to endorse the first two lines of Chuck's email. I think a note of
> caution is needed when we are watching a video or listening to someone
> else's second or third hand reporting of a situation. If we are not
> actually in the field ourselves, how can we pass fair judgement on what
> happened? As Leslie points out, we are at risk of whipping ourselves up
> into some kind of frenzy and becoming perpetrators ourselves in our
> criticism of the perceived 'perpetrators' and what we imagine has happened.
> It is very difficult to pass judgement when we are not fully in the field
> ourselves. I learnt this lesson myself a long time ago. The reporting of
> Bert hitting someone in the chest is particularly difficult to make a
> judgement on. Some kinds of trauma therapy do include hitting people in the
> chest. I have seen that in the past. It activates a kind of energetic flow
> in a previously dissociated or constricted client.
> Looking at this video I would tentatively suggest that maybe Sophie got
> caught in the field and was trying to force an issue which would not be
> forced. And I think we're all at risk of getting caught in the field if we
> are to be anything other than ineffectual facilitators afraid to do
> anything that might upset the client or the group. Noticing when it happens
> is the key here. Not easy.
> Trauma is such a hot issue and the range of approaches to it is vast. I
> don't claim to have the answers as to the best approach. We each do what we
> can at the time and take care to continue to do our own personal work and
> inform ourselves of various ways of dealing with it as best we can. Looking
> back on my own personal journey with trauma I can see that I repeatedly
> unwittingly stepped into a re-traumatising field. I will never know if
> those experiences were helpful or not, but for sure they were not
> permanently damaging to me. What I can say is that I am strengthened by all
> of my experiences of both therapy and constellation work and some of the
> most difficult and painful have been the greatest learnings for me.
> I personally have worked 4 times with Bert and each time I found the
> experience profound and extremely helpful. I haven't worked personally with
> Sophie so I can't comment fully on her approach.
> Anngwyn's words about 'individual discernment' were very helpful but how
> do I learn to discern? For me, it's by stepping into those difficult
> places.
> Good wishes to all
> Barbara
>
>
> On 19 April 2017 at 15:11, Chuck Cogliandro chuck@xxxxxxxxxxx
> [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> To be fair, not being present in the room with the field, the issue and
>> the teaching, as well as not speaking either of the languages, does not
>> support me understanding what’s taking place in the video.
>>
>> That being said, I’ve never worked with an energy of confrontation like
>> this, nor have I seen such an approach be effective in healing. I have
>> experienced re-wounding and an amplification of my defenses when such an
>> approach was taken with me in a healing environment. I’ve also never seen
>> my teachers work in this way, and they trained with Hellinger and his first
>> generation of trainers.
>>
>> While there have been times I’ve felt guided to invite the client in
>> different ways to consider that their healing is on the other side of their
>> resistance, and sometimes suggest ways they might approach gaining a new
>> perspective, I always trust that their soul knows how much they are capable
>> to move at any time. In my experience, invitation to movement leads to
>> lasting change better than does coercion.
>>
>> peace,
>> Chuck Cogliandro
>> Decatur, GA U.S.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Barbara Morgan
> Family Constellations Trainer, Supervisor & Practitioner
> Editor of
> The Knowing Field
> International Constellations Journal
> www.cominghome.org.uk
> www.theknowingfield.com
>
>
>
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