Thank you Vinay for your very thoughtful discussion of psychology and
spirituality.
In the past, it has been trendy to sidestep these problems by calling the
dark side of spirituality, religion. So people protest "I am not religious.
I am spiritual." As you rightly point out Vinay, any spirituality can be
highjacked by the ego. What anyone calls it makes no difference.
Mainstream western society has tended to deal with the dark side of
spirituality by becoming materialistic - in the true meaning of the word -
which is the belief that nothing exists except matter and its movements and
modifications. That then leads to an intellectual attitude where only that
which can be measured is valued. This certainly makes religious/spiritual
organisations much more accountable. Superstitions and more perverse abuses
like church sanctioned paedophilia get exposed.That is a wonderful thing
but it does risk leaving us feel soulless and hollow.
The materialist position then leaves us vulnerable to other abuses. The
communist regime that rescued the Chinese from decades of colonial
exploitation from Europeans and Japanese, had a materialistic,
anti-religious philosophy. That regime perpetrated the cultural revolution
which killed many millions of people and caused incredible hardship. If the
leaders of the cultural revolution had a stronger soul connection,
compassion would have prevented them from doing what they did.
So we are living on the horns of a dilemma. How do we make spirituality
accountable without suffocating our souls? How do we stay in our integrity
in constellation work while allowing a space for the spiritual?
I think Vinay gives us a clue. We need to create an artificial conceptual
barrier between psychology and spirituality. It is artificial because
spirituality permeates everything. Nonetheless, this artificial barrier
ensures our psychological practices remain accountable. It also gives a
space for an untainted spirituality to flourish.
Fortunately, spiritual essence does not need to be named. It only needs to
be given a space. Attempts to control spirituality or to use it to control
others are ridiculous and futile. As soon as this is attempted,
true spirituality disappears like a soap bubble going pop! True
spirituality does not blow its own trumpet. It floats in the atmosphere as
an ineffable presence. In the moments we open to it, it feels like
everything is glowing. As soon as the ego tries to grab that and control
it, it disappears. An artificial barrier would also create a healthy space
for healthy spiritual energy to flourish, a space where it is less
vulnerable to ego contamination.
In dealing with this dilemma I think we can take a hint from Buddhism and
from the mindfulness movement. Western mindfulness has evolved out of
Buddhism. It has taken insights that have developed out of a spiritual
practice, integrated them with Western psychology and made them accountable
using Western scientific method. And everyone is benefitting. The spiritual
aspect of Buddhism still has a respectful presence in the background of the
mindfulness movement. Many western mindfulness teachers quietly maintain
their own spiritual practices and there is a very
productive cross-pollination between the two fields.
Because no spiritual belief systems or practices are imposed, the benefits
of mindfulness remain open to all and sundry. Of course, there are still
problems with ego. There always will be. But these problems are more
manageable and more transparent than they ever have been. We, in the
constellation field, need to be thinking about how we can emulate the
success of the mindfulness movement.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425
www.cwalsh.com.au
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 7:59 AM, Steve Vinay Gunther spirited@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I think there are a number of complex issues going on here…as is always
the case in the field.
Firstly, there is in spiritual traditions, some history of the use of
violence. For instance, the stick of the Zen master. But this is obviously
always very delicate. If the Zen master is 100% clear, with no ego at at,
and uses the stick in a way which is completely in the Tao, perfect in the
moment, then it can help in the process of ‘waking up’ a practitioner.
However, in the hands of anyone else, that stick is simply either
traumatising at worst, or a kind of boot camp monitor's ‘dont sleep in
meditation’ at best.
The trouble is, there are few people at that enlightened point where they
can use ‘the stick’ in such a way.
So in most instances, it comes with some ego, and creates at least some
trauma. Though I guess a very serious spiritual adherent could use the pain
in some way for their own transcendence practice.
But family constellations is not an exclusively spiritual practice, and
facilitators are not in the role specifically of spiritual teachers.
Hellinger may elevate himself (and Sophie) to such a role, or people may
want to place him in such a role, and then the question would be, are he -
and she - able to fulfil such roles in an enlightened way.
My own judgement is that Hellinger is a profoundly spiritual man, with
deep realisation, but certainly not enlightened. So I think that much of
the time his effect is spiritual as much as psychological. And I also think
that at times, his ego can get in the way. And when combined with violence,
that can have a bad effect. Sophie, I dont believe has much of a level of
spiritual realisation, and therefore her interventions on this level are
more ego based, and therefore potentially more damaging.
I think its important to exercise this kind of judgment ('discrimination'
in yogic terms) when evaluating the actions of people who want their
teachings to be accepted as spiritual guidance, which Bert and Sophie
clearly are asking.
The complexity of this situation is added to because FC falls ostensibly
in the sphere of a psychological practice; this arena does not have room
for claims of spiritual leadership. The facilitator is a skilled
practitioner, who applies knowledge and theory of human dynamics in a
careful, professionally ethical, and respectful manner. Hellnger started as
a priest - the role of spiritual guide, then moved into the psychological
arena. Family constellations is a synthesis of a range of elements,
including shamanistic ones. The shaman is not a psychological facilitator,
but more in an authority role - similar in that sense to a priest, and
invoking the need for complete trust on the part of the client. Where such
authority is used with complete benevolence, then even painful rituals may
be transformative. But a little ego, and such power can become abusive.
So again, I think the evaluation of the amount of ego (and self blindness)
which occurs in the the authority-component of family constellations is
essential - not simply requiring trust (blind obedience) on the part of the
client/group.
The FC field has allowed practitioners in who have zero psychological
background, and I know on this list we have had discussions about this.
Because its not solely a psychological practice, it can be learned - and
effectively performed - by people who draw on their life experience, their
own level of development, and perhaps other claims to the skills involved.
I know there are many facilitators on this list who do not have specific
psychological training, and yet are excellent practitioners. So the issue
of qualifications, training, etc, is a complex one.
However, this is a case where I think a lack of quality psychological
training becomes an obstacle to good practice. I do not know Sophie’s
training. None of the blurbs on her mention this. They simply give her the
status as Bert’s wife, and some cotton wool besides that. She claims being
a ‘counsellor’ as a result of the time with Bert.
Yes, in many ways, she could claim having undertaken a mentorship-type of
training with Bert. However, this is obviously fraught, as being trained by
your husband has its blind sides.
Part of what a good therapy training involves is many hours of ones own
therapy, and many hours of supervision. I do not know if Sophie has
undergone either of these - and the supervision of her husband is such a
dual role that its definitely limited.
So I think theres a problem with her appointment by him to the role she
plays, without any other kind of training on her part.
When I was running my Gestalt institute, my wife and I would attend some
of the public workshops run by visiting presenters. One of them, a friend
of mine, made a comment, that this was problematic, as it was like the
‘king and queen visiting’. That is, we couldnt just be participants, our
roles were too set by the other context. And my wife was essentially
‘appointed’ to that position by virtue of her association with me - and
this was simpy as participants.
I think theres this same kind of issue with Sophie. Appointment of people
to a therapy-type role and a position of authority is problematic, because
it bypasses training.
If you look at what the Hellinger website says about her:
'Sophie Hellinger is an extraordinary woman, wife, mother and grandmother.
Her many sides and appearances make it difficult to describe her in words.
She has been active in the counseling area for already decades. The areas
of application of the seminars conducted by Sophie Hellinger really have a
unique characteristic.
The powerful and esteeming attention which the clients can experience with
her, create confidence in life itself.
The people able to surrender to her know how to appreciate her abilities
and her open manner, which is very direct and clear. In each case she takes
people to their light and shadow side - their integrity, which is often
experienced as something like an earthquake. It is an extraordinary event
which shows connections that go deeper and beyond the limited mental
imagination.
She easily transcends barriers and leads into levels of solutions which
are alienated from common consciousness, although they make one take notice.
Her knowledge and skill extend from professional career movements to
topics on heath, be it psychic or physical, and many other areas of life,
as well as passed ones.
Through her unique gift, strengthened by her always present interest and
openness, paired with experience and enormous knowledge, Sophie Hellinger
disposes of an almost eerie-like divination in relation to spiritual,
physical and inter-personal suffering. Thus she is able to constantly show
us an image which allows and provides inner and external growth within a
safe context. To what she connects her potential or from what source she
takes her energy is kept hidden to the spectator. It often resembles magic.'
We can see that her claims to status rely on not much professional
substance, apart from having been with Bert. ‘Active in the counselling
area’ is entirely based on her time with Bert, as her sole trainer. The use
of the word ‘surrender’ suggests the theme of spiritual teacher.
‘Transcending barriers’ is a very problematic term from the point of view
of professional ethics, and suggests that this is not a reference point for
her. Again, the claims to divination, and magic suggest either that of a
shaman or spiritual teacher, which is a strong claim, and dangerous without
sufficient preparation and training and humility - factors which I dont
think can be entirely supplied by her husband.
The trouble is, in the minds of the general public, this is just as much
FC, as anything else - and the destructive components of ego-based
authority become associated with FC in general.
But moving away from Bert and Sophie, I think these are wider issues for
our community of facilitators in general. The claim to authority -
intepretive authority for instance - can be problematic from a
psychological point of view, as this can work against the very
phenomenological approach which family constellations claims to take. And
the criticisms here of Bert and Sophie can be relevant to any of us, to the
degree we use our power as facitilators without sufficient awareness.
So the discussion can open up this direction of exploration as well, to
good effect I hope.
Vinay
On 20 Apr 2017, at 6:35 am, ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
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15 Messages
Digest #2853
1a
Re: Orders of love and trauma by "Anne Beversdorf" annebeversdorf
1b
Re: Orders of love and trauma by "Joanna Malinowska" malinowska_joanna
1c
Re: Orders of love and trauma by "Christine Ruettimann" christine.sarena@
ymail.com
1d
Re: Orders of love and trauma by "Joanna Malinowska" malinowska_joanna
1e
Re: Orders of love and trauma by "Gertrud Yasutake"
1f
Re: Orders of love and trauma by "Janice Crawford"
1g
Re: Orders of love and trauma by "Leslie Nipps"
2a
What is by
2b
Re: What is by "Linda Conyard"
2c
Re: What is by "Deborah Crowe"
2d
Re: What is by "Eimear O'Neill"
3
Physical harm by Perpetrator by "bizden titiz" bizdentitiz
4a
Fwd: Orders of love and trauma by "Chuck Cogliandro" mkdrum1
4b
Re: Fwd: Orders of love and trauma by "Barbara Morgan"
4c
Re: Fwd: Orders of love and trauma by "Julio Príncipe"
Messages
1aRe: Orders of love and trauma
<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ConstellationTalk/conversations/topics/11652;_ylc=X3oDMTJydmU3b2VpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkwMDgyODcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYyMjE1BG1zZ0lkAzExNjUyBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzE0OTI2Mzc3MzQ->
Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:53 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Anne Beversdorf"
annebeversdorf
<anne@xxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Orders%20of%20love%20and%20trauma>
I have an associate who recounted to me a story of attending a workshop in
Germany where Hellinger replaced the representative for Father and faced
the
young man who would not respect his father. and Bert hit they guy very hard
in the chest. My friend said he imagines it was Bert's own issues breaking
through and that he probably felt badly about it after, but who knows. And
I
have had potential clients saying they've seen some material about the
Hellinger work that she found hierarchical and threatening and wasn't sure
about participating.
It makes me wonder again about the different stages of his work. I started
practice in the early 2000's, before he had fully moved into the 'movement
only' work, not to mention stuff that came later. I know, in
constellations,
it is not my role to force issues on anyone. Period. I generally feel very
good about the self-respect and positive feelings that come to most of the
participants and clients in constellations. I have twice had clients that
refused to see the results, denying the experiences of the representatives
(and my observations) to be in any way meaningful. My response (yes,
internal frustration) is to explain that the work is done with the response
of participants to the energy of the family situation. If that work by many
participants does not speak to client, I can't change the work.
My answer to queries about Bert's practices is that I cannot participate in
anything that coerces people and feel sure they will feel safe.
Anne Beversdorf
Counseling Astrologer, Western and Vedic
<mailto:anne@xxxxxxxxxxx ;<anne@xxxxxxxxxxx>> anne@xxxxxxxxxxx; <
http://www.stariel.com/>
www.stariel.com; <http://www.sacred-threads.com/> www.sacred-threads.com
Board of Directors; Librarian, The Alexandria IBase Project
http://alexandriaibase.org/home
Author: Vedic Secrets to Happiness <http://www.createspace.com/3802578>
www.createspace. <http://www.createspace.com/3802578>com/3802578
<http://www.createspace.com/3802578>
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1bRe: Orders of love and trauma
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Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:24 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Joanna Malinowska"
malinowska_joanna
<joanna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Orders%20of%20love%20and%20trauma>
Dear Giselle,
Yes, I could not believe my eyes. The girl was hit with a microphone, and
quite hard. Yet what was happening before was also forced. It was visible
that mother and daughter were connected before Sophie was trying to force
some words on the daughter. The mother smiled, the daughter was chatting
with her. Then they became more and more rigid and disconnected. If there
was trauma there, then more trauma has been added. It was also brake of
trust, I wonder if this girl will be open to any therapy in the future.
This was not what Family Constellations is about as it was not love (and no
compassion), even no respect, and definitely nothing from the Knowing
Field. It was just acting from the power and superiority.
When it comes to the TRUTH, nobody holds it. The person can be hold by the
TRUTH when he or she is open to it. Then the TRUTH speaks through him /
her. We can call TRUTH different names, God, or Spirit or just
Unconditional Love, or Universe. Unfortunately, the individuals who are
touch by TRUTH quite offer become grandiose and take it for their personal
greatness. And this is how they loose connection with TRUTH. Or there are
some other reasons, sickness or old age, and they forget. The TRUTH stays
and evolves, and we can be always grateful to them for showing us the way,
even if they do not lead anymore.
Thank you fo sharing.
With LOve
Joanna
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:19 AM, 'Heather Embree'
heather@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
of
Thanks for sharing this, Giselle. That is disturbing for me personally. I
have seen facilitators use physical contact with clients and it’s an act
trying to put one in place of respecting the order with a notion ofthe
punishment. For me, that scene is publically humiliating and shuts down
younger person from her truth and feelings. There are real cases oflanguage
parental abuse that may not be addressed (I am only going by body
here as I don’t understand German or Russian), and it an go to furtherlove
silence someone from the truth of the issues.
It’s not my style and rather for me the movement with any discord is
helping each person see the other’s humanity, personal violence and learn
how to self-care or self-protect in the face of it.
Thank you for sharing.
Heather
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ConstellationTalk@
yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 8:40 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Orders of love and trauma
Dear ones,
I have been wanting to connect with you about this for some months…
Someone sent me a video from Bert which I find quite disturbing. Since
then, I have mixed feelings... I would really appreciate you let me know
your feelings/thoughts about it.
We know the truth he - and Sophie - are holding and yet, in my heart, and
as a trauma therapist, I can’t accept this violence, which also seems
unnecessary. There is some kind of fundamentalism about the orders of
that seems to be very disconnected. I really wonder about the effectsthis
has… I could say more, but I would really love if you could let me know<http://www.interbeing.space/>
what your thoughts are… The video is in German and Russian… but if you
can’t understand the words, at least you can see the faces and the moment
Sophie hits a participant with the microphone, and, afterwards Bert sends
out someone who complains about this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ
With love and gratitude,
Giselle
<http://www.interbeing.space>
www.interbeing. <http://www.interbeing.space/>space
Giselle Charbonnier
+49 (0)163 834 1924 <+49%20163%208341924> <+49%20163%208341924>
Bevernstr. 6, 10997, Berlin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--
Joanna Malinowska
Clinical Hypnotherapist
www.myhypno. <http://www.myhypno.com.au/>com.au
<http://www.myhypno.com.au/>
www.self-hypnosis. <http://www.self-hypnosis.com.au/>com.au
<http://www.self-hypnosis.com.au/>
Mobile 0412 092 972
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1cRe: Orders of love and trauma
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Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:51 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Christine Ruettimann"
christine.sarena@xxxxxxxxx
<christine.sarena@xxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Orders%20of%20love%20and%20trauma>
Dear ones
Watching this is also rather dirturbing to me. What comes to my mind is
that human conduct is ever unreliable. The way the "constellation" was
facilitated was full of ego and without any respect and sensitivity from
both Sophie and Bert.
for those who don't understand German or Russian I give the German
translation:
Sophie forces the young woman to say to her mother: "You are here the big
one". The daughter says to Sophie that she cannot say it, because she has
so many problems. Still Sophie tries to force her. After the daughter
becomes more irritated Sophie tries the same procedure with the mother. She
orders her to say to the daughter: "You are here the little one". She can't
say it either. Sophie says "You HAVE TO honour the hierarchy", then being
frustrated walkes away. Bert says "This was a good demonstration what it
means to violate the hierarchy (ranking system)." Then someone of the group
says something and Bert asks three times. "Who was talking here?". When he
sees the woman he says "Get out of the door!" Then he says to all: "We
don't tolerate it if someone arrogates to intervene here!"Sitting down he
says two times: "Now I made clear WHO is the big one here!" Sophie says:
"It's about life and death. TO VIOLATE THE HIERARCHY IS LEADING TO DEATH".
....... (resulting in dead silence)
We all make mistakes. But in my opinion the attitude that was demonstrated
here is very harmful to the wonderful gift of constellation work.
Christine RüttimannSwitzerland
"Joanna Malinowska joanna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]" <
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb am 4:24 Mittwoch, 19.April
2017:
Dear Giselle,
Yes, I could not believe my eyes. The girl was hit with a microphone, and
quite hard. Yet what was happening before was also forced. It was visible
that mother and daughter were connected before Sophie was trying to force
some words on the daughter. The mother smiled, the daughter was chatting
with her. Then they became more and more rigid and disconnected. If there
was trauma there, then more trauma has been added. It was also brake of
trust, I wonder if this girl will be open to any therapy in the future.
This was not what Family Constellations is about as it was not love (and
no compassion), even no respect, and definitely nothing from the Knowing
Field. It was just acting from the power and superiority.
When it comes to the TRUTH, nobody holds it. The person can be hold by the
TRUTH when he or she is open to it. Then the TRUTH speaks through him /
her. We can call TRUTH different names, God, or Spirit or just
Unconditional Love, or Universe. Unfortunately, the individuals who are
touch by TRUTH quite offer become grandiose and take it for their personal
greatness. And this is how they loose connection with TRUTH. Or there are
some other reasons, sickness or old age, and they forget. The TRUTH stays
and evolves, and we can be always grateful to them for showing us the way,
even if they do not lead anymore.
Thank you fo sharing.
With LOve
Joanna
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:19 AM, 'Heather Embree' heather@
blossomingheart.ca [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Thanks for sharing this, Giselle. That is disturbing for me personally.
I have seen facilitators use physical contact with clients and it’s an act
of trying to put one in place of respecting the order with a notion of
punishment. For me, that scene is publically humiliating and shuts down the
younger person from her truth and feelings. There are real cases of
parental abuse that may not be addressed (I am only going by body language
here as I don’t understand German or Russian), and it an go to further
silence someone from the truth of the issues.
It’s not my style and rather for me the movement with any discord is
helping each person see the other’s humanity, personal violence and learn
how to self-care or self-protect in the face of it.
Thank you for sharing.
Heather
From: ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ConstellationTalk@ yah
oogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 8:40 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Orders of love and trauma
Dear ones,
I have been wanting to connect with you about this for some months…
Someone sent me a video from Bert which I find quite disturbing. Since
then, I have mixed feelings... I would really appreciate you let me know
your feelings/thoughts about it.
We know the truth he - and Sophie - are holding and yet, in my heart, and
as a trauma therapist, I can’t accept this violence, which also seems
unnecessary. There is some kind of fundamentalism about the orders of love
that seems to be very disconnected. I really wonder about the effects this
has… I could say more, but I would really love if you could let me know
what your thoughts are… The video is in German and Russian… but if you
can’t understand the words, at least you can see the faces and the moment
Sophie hits a participant with the microphone, and, afterwards Bert sends
out someone who complains about this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=hjp7Frr3QjQ
With love and gratitude,
Giselle
<http://www.interbeing.space>
www.interbeing. <http://www.interbeing.space/>space
<http://www.interbeing.space/>
Giselle Charbonnier
+49 (0)163 834 1924 <+49%20163%208341924>
Bevernstr. 6, 10997, Berlin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--
Joanna Malinowska
Clinical Hypnotherapist
www.myhypno. <http://www.myhypno.com.au/>com.au
<http://www.myhypno.com.au/>
www.self-hypnosis. <http://www.self-hypnosis.com.au/>com.au
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1dRe: Orders of love and trauma
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Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:22 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Joanna Malinowska"
malinowska_joanna
<joanna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Orders%20of%20love%20and%20trauma>
Thank you, Christine,
I did not understand the words, I just saw the body language, the tone of
the voice and the action.
There is something I have to say, "
*TO VIOLATE THE HIERARCHY IS LEADING TO DEATH". Yes, this is the case,
especially in totalitarian regime. Many people sacrificed their lives
challenging hierarchy. Do we call them heroes? Hierarchy has to be
challenged when it goes wrong. Otherwise we would be like a herd of sheep
blindly following the main ram. This leads to death and destruction, and
even genocide. *
*I am not saying that against Bert or or to undermine his past greatness. I
honor him and his attribution to humanity. It just seems that his Soul is
not connected with his body and mind anymore. He is an old man now and a
human, like we all. We will all get old and we may lose this connection.
What is surprising that anybody still stayed inside the room... Somehow, we
do behave like a herd of sheep...*
*With Love*
*Joanna*
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 6:51 PM, Christine Ruettimann
christine.sarena@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
big
Dear ones
Watching this is also rather dirturbing to me. What comes to my mind is
that human conduct is ever unreliable. The way the "constellation" was
facilitated was full of ego and without any respect and sensitivity from
both Sophie and Bert.
for those who don't understand German or Russian I give the German
translation:
*Sophie forces the young woman to say to her mother: "You are here the
one". The daughter says to Sophie that she cannot say it, because she hasShe
so many problems. Still Sophie tries to force her. After the daughter
becomes more irritated Sophie tries the same procedure with the mother.
orders her to say to the daughter: "You are here the little one". Shecan't
say it either. Sophie says "You HAVE TO honour the hierarchy", then beinggroup
frustrated walkes away. Bert says "This was a good demonstration what it
means to violate the hierarchy (ranking system)." Then someone of the
says something and Bert asks three times. "Who was talking here?". Whenhe
sees the woman he says "Get out of the door!" Then he says to all: "Wethe
don't tolerate it if someone arrogates to intervene here!"*
*Sitting down he says two times: "Now I made clear WHO is the big one
here!" Sophie says: "It's about life and death. TO VIOLATE THE HIERARCHY
IS LEADING TO DEATH". ....... (resulting in dead silence)*
We all make mistakes. But in my opinion the *attitude* that was
demonstrated here is very harmful to the wonderful gift of constellation
work.
Christine Rüttimann
Switzerland
"Joanna Malinowska joanna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]" <
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb am 4:24 Mittwoch, 19.April
2017:
Dear Giselle,
Yes, I could not believe my eyes. The girl was hit with a microphone, and
quite hard. Yet what was happening before was also forced. It was visible
that mother and daughter were connected before Sophie was trying to force
some words on the daughter. The mother smiled, the daughter was chatting
with her. Then they became more and more rigid and disconnected. If there
was trauma there, then more trauma has been added. It was also brake of
trust, I wonder if this girl will be open to any therapy in the future.
This was not what Family Constellations is about as it was not love (and
no compassion), even no respect, and definitely nothing from the Knowing
Field. It was just acting from the power and superiority.
When it comes to the TRUTH, nobody holds it. The person can be hold by
TRUTH when he or she is open to it. Then the TRUTH speaks through him /personal
her. We can call TRUTH different names, God, or Spirit or just
Unconditional Love, or Universe. Unfortunately, the individuals who are
touch by TRUTH quite offer become grandiose and take it for their
greatness. And this is how they loose connection with TRUTH. Or there areway,
some other reasons, sickness or old age, and they forget. The TRUTH stays
and evolves, and we can be always grateful to them for showing us the
even if they do not lead anymore.of
Thank you fo sharing.
With LOve
Joanna
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:19 AM, 'Heather Embree'
heather@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@
yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Thanks for sharing this, Giselle. That is disturbing for me personally. I
have seen facilitators use physical contact with clients and it’s an act
trying to put one in place of respecting the order with a notion ofthe
punishment. For me, that scene is publically humiliating and shuts down
younger person from her truth and feelings. There are real cases oflanguage
parental abuse that may not be addressed (I am only going by body
here as I don’t understand German or Russian), and it an go to furtheryahoogroups.com>
silence someone from the truth of the issues.
It’s not my style and rather for me the movement with any discord is
helping each person see the other’s humanity, personal violence and learn
how to self-care or self-protect in the face of it.
Thank you for sharing.
Heather
From: ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:ConstellationTalk@
yahoogroups.com <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 8:40 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com <ConstellationTalk@
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Orders of love and traumalove
Dear ones,
I have been wanting to connect with you about this for some months…
Someone sent me a video from Bert which I find quite disturbing. Since
then, I have mixed feelings... I would really appreciate you let me know
your feelings/thoughts about it.
We know the truth he - and Sophie - are holding and yet, in my heart, and
as a trauma therapist, I can’t accept this violence, which also seems
unnecessary. There is some kind of fundamentalism about the orders of
that seems to be very disconnected. I really wonder about the effectsthis
has… I could say more, but I would really love if you could let me know<http://www.interbeing.space/>
what your thoughts are… The video is in German and Russian… but if you
can’t understand the words, at least you can see the faces and the moment
Sophie hits a participant with the microphone, and, afterwards Bert sends
out someone who complains about this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=hjp7Frr3QjQ
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ>
With love and gratitude,
Giselle
<http://www.interbeing.space>
www.interbeing. <http://www.interbeing.space/>space
<http://www.myhypno.com.au/>
Giselle Charbonnier
+49 (0)163 834 1924 <+49%20163%208341924>
Bevernstr. 6, 10997, Berlin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--
Joanna Malinowska
Clinical Hypnotherapist
www.myhypno. <http://www.myhypno.com.au/>com.au
www.self-hypnosis. <http://www.self-hypnosis.com.au/>com.au<http://www.self-hypnosis.com.au/>
Mobile 0412 092 972
--
Joanna Malinowska
Clinical Hypnotherapist
www.myhypno. <http://www.myhypno.com.au/>com.au
<http://www.myhypno.com.au/>
www.self-hypnosis. <http://www.self-hypnosis.com.au/>com.au
<http://www.self-hypnosis.com.au/>
Mobile 0412 092 972
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1eRe: Orders of love and trauma
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Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:33 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Gertrud Yasutake"
<gy1800@xxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Orders%20of%20love%20and%20trauma>
What I see watching this video clip:
The constellation takes place in Russia.
The constellation is done sitting down in a row of seating behind another
row of seated people.
This location gives a sense of being cramped and not allotted the proper
space for whatever issue is addressed.
The facilitator stands and moves around while the representatives sit and
cannot move much, the height difference.
At some point there is some jovial rapport between the two representatives.
The facilitator does a lot of finger pointing.
The daughter's representative is locked in a long look with the
facilitator, looking up at her with a set and closed face. She gets hit on
the head by the facilitator with the mike (an instrument of power).
The sitting women have no support, male or otherwise. The female
facilitator HAS support from a male.
The male steps in and sends another woman out of the room.
Words of life and death are spoken.
Some interpretation: The constellation has become a Russia issue. Russia
has a very long history of repression, first in the history of serfdom and
later in the history of communism. As Hunter Beaumont explained in one of
his workshops, in many countries that suffer violence, the men become
decimated through war and other terrors. The women have to become the
survivors and strong in carrying on.
The constellation shows three kind of reactions to tyranny: the ones that
disappear, the ones that try to cooperate (mother’s rep) and the ones that
rebel. Sophie and Bert were part of that constellation.
Gertrud Yasutake
________________________________
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
on behalf of Giselle Charbonnier gisellecharbonnier@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 8:40 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Orders of love and trauma
Dear ones,
I have been wanting to connect with you about this for some months…
Someone sent me a video from Bert which I find quite disturbing. Since
then, I have mixed feelings... I would really appreciate you let me know
your feelings/thoughts about it.
We know the truth he - and Sophie - are holding and yet, in my heart, and
as a trauma therapist, I can’t accept this violence, which also seems
unnecessary. There is some kind of fundamentalism about the orders of love
that seems to be very disconnected. I really wonder about the effects this
has… I could say more, but I would really love if you could let me know
what your thoughts are… The video is in German and Russian… but if you
can’t understand the words, at least you can see the faces and the moment
Sophie hits a participant with the microphone, and, afterwards Bert sends
out someone who complains about this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ
[https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVP.LhPIvLFpm3ckhMNxbB59ugEsDh&pid=Api]<
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ>
Видео 2<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ>
www.youtube.com
"Новые" техники семейных расстановок показанные Софией и Бертом
Хеллингером на семинаре ...
With love and gratitude,
Giselle
[cid:9591B616-6606-4A53-89F9-A0549E7ECF5B@fritz.box]
www.interbeing.space<http://www.interbeing.space>
Integracion Personal : Técnicas Psicofisicas y Sistémicas ...<
http://www.interbeing.space/>
www.interbeing. <http://www.interbeing.space/>space
<http://www.interbeing.space/>
El ser humano es una totalidad indivisible -cuerpo, mente y alma- e
inseparable del contexto mayor que incluye sus vínculos con otros seres
humanos y con su entorno.
Giselle Charbonnier
+49 (0)163 834 1924 <+49%20163%208341924>
Bevernstr. 6, 10997, Berlin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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1fRe: Orders of love and trauma
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Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:56 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Janice Crawford"
<jcrawford4000@xxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Orders%20of%20love%20and%20trauma>
A grateful beneficiary of Hellinger's work (in fact I've even written a
very personal book about that), I'm also grateful for this discussion.
While I have sometimes ultimately gained a great deal from moments of
forcefulness from a facilitator, I do feel that it appears the client was
put in a primal survival/soul conflict here The mother reps leaning into
the client's space with needs that were oblivious to the clients reaction
were energetically aggressively (predatory) - though at moments loving.
And it appeared to me that instinctually the client wanted to push away
(fight) and run (flee) rather than (collapse) and submit energetically
(die). And then she was attacked with the microphone...
It is Hellinger 101, but perhaps suggesting they stand and find their
places and then giving the mother some resources might have allowed a next
step to unfold.
I do also know that there is the story of years ago H wrestling a very tall
much younger man to the ground for not bowing to his father. Years later
that man was a sensitive rep of my grandfather in a constellation.
So for me one of the questions that comes out of this excellent discussion
involves the interface of instinctual response, ego narrative protection
and soul movement. Jan Crawford
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Gertrud Yasutake gy1800@xxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
on
What I see watching this video clip:
The constellation takes place in Russia.
The constellation is done sitting down in a row of seating behind another
row of seated people.
This location gives a sense of being cramped and not allotted the proper
space for whatever issue is addressed.
The facilitator stands and moves around while the representatives sit and
cannot move much, the height difference.
At some point there is some jovial rapport between the two
representatives.
The facilitator does a lot of finger pointing.
The daughter's representative is locked in a long look with the
facilitator, looking up at her with a set and closed face. She gets hit
the head by the facilitator with the mike (an instrument of power).and
The sitting women have no support, male or otherwise. The female
facilitator HAS support from a male.
The male steps in and sends another woman out of the room.
Words of life and death are spoken.
Some interpretation: The constellation has become a Russia issue. Russia
has a very long history of repression, first in the history of serfdom
later in the history of communism. As Hunter Beaumont explained in one ofthat
his workshops, in many countries that suffer violence, the men become
decimated through war and other terrors. The women have to become the
survivors and strong in carrying on.
The constellation shows three kind of reactions to tyranny: the ones that
disappear, the ones that try to cooperate (mother’s rep) and the ones
rebel. Sophie and Bert were part of that constellation.Talk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Gertrud Yasutake
________________________________
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <Constellation
on behalf of Giselle Charbonnier gisellecharbonnier@xxxxxxxxxlove
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 8:40 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Orders of love and trauma
Dear ones,
I have been wanting to connect with you about this for some months…
Someone sent me a video from Bert which I find quite disturbing. Since
then, I have mixed feelings... I would really appreciate you let me know
your feelings/thoughts about it.
We know the truth he - and Sophie - are holding and yet, in my heart, and
as a trauma therapist, I can’t accept this violence, which also seems
unnecessary. There is some kind of fundamentalism about the orders of
that seems to be very disconnected. I really wonder about the effectsthis
has… I could say more, but I would really love if you could let me know<http://www.interbeing.space/>
what your thoughts are… The video is in German and Russian… but if you
can’t understand the words, at least you can see the faces and the moment
Sophie hits a participant with the microphone, and, afterwards Bert sends
out someone who complains about this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ
[https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVP.LhPIvLFpm3ckhMNxbB59ugEsDh&pid=Api]<
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ>
Видео 2<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ>
www.youtube.com
"Новые" техники семейных расстановок показанные Софией и Бертом
Хеллингером на семинаре ...
With love and gratitude,
Giselle
[cid:9591B616-6606-4A53-89F9-A0549E7ECF5B@fritz.box]
www.interbeing.space<http://www.interbeing.space>
Integracion Personal : Técnicas Psicofisicas y Sistémicas ...<
http://www.interbeing.space/>
www.interbeing. <http://www.interbeing.space/>space
El ser humano es una totalidad indivisible -cuerpo, mente y alma- eReply to sender
inseparable del contexto mayor que incluye sus vínculos con otros seres
humanos y con su entorno.
Giselle Charbonnier
+49 (0)163 834 1924 <+49%20163%208341924> <+49%20163%208341924>
Bevernstr. 6, 10997, Berlin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<jcrawford4000@xxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Orders%20of%20love%20and%20trauma>
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1gRe: Orders of love and trauma
<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ConstellationTalk/conversations/topics/11664;_ylc=X3oDMTJyaXRscXNwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkwMDgyODcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYyMjE1BG1zZ0lkAzExNjY0BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzE0OTI2Mzc3MzQ->
Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:33 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Leslie Nipps"
<lnipps@xxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Orders%20of%20love%20and%20trauma>
I’ve only experienced Bert and Sophie Hellinger directly once, in Mexico
City in 2015. After one day, it became very clear to me that clients were
chosen for either the “love bomb” category or the “shame” category. It felt
very much to me like a structured (if unconscious) strategy to assert
authority and create an intense sense of belonging. The love bomb work was
often amazing, and I am still affected by the beautiful, swift,
non-judgmental resolutions that I saw. The shame interactions were hard to
watch and surrounded by compliance behaviors that I was really disturbed by.
And, in the community around the Hellingers now, there is a teaching
circulating around how hierarchy means that the authority, once followed,
cannot be questioned, that’s it’s a violation of the Orders of Love. I’ve
had these arguments in other forums. I consider it a massive
misunderstanding of the Order of Love with respect to Seniority. There is a
core teaching there that is really important, but it’s been distorted.
I think it’s important to name these cleanly, but without too much energy
or intensity. If we are expending too much energy on resisting this, we can
get swept up in the victim/perpetrator dance ourselves.
So glad for the perspectives on this list!
The Rev. Leslie Nipps
Convivium Constellations - Founder, Practitioner & Trainer
“Trust as a Way of Life…”
www.conviviumconstellations.com
"Hasten to that which supports." - The I Ching
On Apr 19, 2017, at 9:56 AM, Janice Crawford jcrawford4000@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
A grateful beneficiary of Hellinger's work (in fact I've even written a
very personal book about that), I'm also grateful for this discussion.
While I have sometimes ultimately gained a great deal from moments of
forcefulness from a facilitator, I do feel that it appears the client was
put in a primal survival/soul conflict here The mother reps leaning into
the client's space with needs that were oblivious to the clients reaction
were energetically aggressively (predatory) - though at moments loving. And
it appeared to me that instinctually the client wanted to push away (fight)
and run (flee) rather than (collapse) and submit energetically (die). And
then she was attacked with the microphone...
It is Hellinger 101, but perhaps suggesting they stand and find their
places and then giving the mother some resources might have allowed a next
step to unfold.
I do also know that there is the story of years ago H wrestling a very
tall much younger man to the ground for not bowing to his father. Years
later that man was a sensitive rep of my grandfather in a constellation.
So for me one of the questions that comes out of this excellent discussion
involves the interface of instinctual response, ego narrative protection
and soul movement. Jan Crawford
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Gertrud Yasutake gy1800@xxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
What I see watching this video clip:
The constellation takes place in Russia.
The constellation is done sitting down in a row of seating behind another
row of seated people.
This location gives a sense of being cramped and not allotted the proper
space for whatever issue is addressed.
The facilitator stands and moves around while the representatives sit and
cannot move much, the height difference.
At some point there is some jovial rapport between the two representatives.
The facilitator does a lot of finger pointing.
The daughter's representative is locked in a long look with the
facilitator, looking up at her with a set and closed face. She gets hit on
the head by the facilitator with the mike (an instrument of power).
The sitting women have no support, male or otherwise. The female
facilitator HAS support from a male.
The male steps in and sends another woman out of the room.
Words of life and death are spoken.
Some interpretation: The constellation has become a Russia issue. Russia
has a very long history of repression, first in the history of serfdom and
later in the history of communism. As Hunter Beaumont explained in one of
his workshops, in many countries that suffer violence, the men become
decimated through war and other terrors. The women have to become the
survivors and strong in carrying on.
The constellation shows three kind of reactions to tyranny: the ones that
disappear, the ones that try to cooperate (mother’s rep) and the ones that
rebel. Sophie and Bert were part of that constellation.
Gertrud Yasutake
________________________________
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
on behalf of Giselle Charbonnier gisellecharbonnier@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 8:40 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Orders of love and trauma
Dear ones,
I have been wanting to connect with you about this for some months…
Someone sent me a video from Bert which I find quite disturbing. Since
then, I have mixed feelings... I would really appreciate you let me know
your feelings/thoughts about it.
We know the truth he - and Sophie - are holding and yet, in my heart, and
as a trauma therapist, I can’t accept this violence, which also seems
unnecessary. There is some kind of fundamentalism about the orders of love
that seems to be very disconnected. I really wonder about the effects this
has… I could say more, but I would really love if you could let me know
what your thoughts are… The video is in German and Russian… but if you
can’t understand the words, at least you can see the faces and the moment
Sophie hits a participant with the microphone, and, afterwards Bert sends
out someone who complains about this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ
[https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVP.LhPIvLFpm3ckhMNxbB59ugEsDh&pid=Api]<
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ>
Видео 2<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjp7Frr3QjQ>
www.youtube.com
"Новые" техники семейных расстановок показанные Софией и Бертом
Хеллингером на семинаре ...
With love and gratitude,
Giselle
[cid:9591B616-6606-4A53-89F9-A0549E7ECF5B@fritz.box]
www.interbeing.space<http://www.interbeing.space>
Integracion Personal : Técnicas Psicofisicas y Sistémicas ...<
http://www.interbeing.space/>
www.interbeing. <http://www.interbeing.space/>space
<http://www.interbeing.space/>
El ser humano es una totalidad indivisible -cuerpo, mente y alma- e
inseparable del contexto mayor que incluye sus vínculos con otros seres
humanos y con su entorno.
Giselle Charbonnier
+49 (0)163 834 1924 <+49%20163%208341924>
Bevernstr. 6, 10997, Berlin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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2aWhat is
<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ConstellationTalk/conversations/topics/11654;_ylc=X3oDMTJyc2MxdTNlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkwMDgyODcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYyMjE1BG1zZ0lkAzExNjU0BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzE0OTI2Mzc3MzQ->
Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:12 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
<anngwyn@xxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20What%20is>
Springtime Greetings from Arizona !
In response to Giselle's understandable discomfort, I am reminded of Bert's
early teachings which still resonate for me, which involves, simply "
Acknowledging What Is " and he wrote a book with that title. And so for me,
what is that Bert and Sophie have often physically, emotionally,and
spiritually abused, re-traumatized and publicly humiliated more than a few
trusting people in pain, who have appealed to them for help. For me, as a
trauma specialist, this has everything to do with power over and not much
to
offer in the genuine interest of healing. As a result I have taken some
distance for many years now, and Bert's early teachings remain a profound
source of inspiration for me, still.
Watching this video, my heart hurt for many reasons. I find it quite
remarkable that thousands will travel far and pay good money to subject
themselves to such abuse and then passively sit, in unexamined,complicit,
silence,for years of top down arrogance and exploitation. In this case,
the one
brave voice of protest was excluded. Is this not fascism? Human nature, I
sadly suppose...along with a persistent belief is that there has to be some
bon-bon somewhere deep within such blatant ca-.ca.
Individual discernment is so desperately needed...within what has become
a cult of iconic personalities, and it is also important to not give up on
the wealth of teachings that Bert's philosophical perspective has offered
for so many of us in profound, and for me, life changing ways. I so hope
that no one will ever take any licence to physically, emotionally or
spiritually abuse anyone ever, in blind loyal imitation of such clueless
behavior as
we see on this video and many other instances, as well. Please bear in
mind that one of the most important tenets of trauma work is to never
overwhelm an already overwhelmed client and many, if not most, who come to
SCW have
some history of trauma. And for me, after working for many decades, with
traumatized people in pain,my heart has come to understand that it is
often more important to be kind, than to be right.
All for now,
Anngwyn St.just Ph.D
_www.acst-international.com_ (http://www.acst-international.com)
http://anngwyn.wisrville.org
Reply to sender <anngwyn@xxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20What%20is>. Reply to
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2bRe: What is
<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ConstellationTalk/conversations/topics/11655;_ylc=X3oDMTJydmxhdnRxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkwMDgyODcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYyMjE1BG1zZ0lkAzExNjU1BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzE0OTI2Mzc3MzQ->
Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:23 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Linda Conyard"
<linda.conyard@xxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20What%20is>
Beautiful Anngwyn xxxx
On 19 Apr 2017, at 4:12 pm, anngwyn@xxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Bert's early teachings which still resonate for me, which involves, simply
Springtime Greetings from Arizona !
In response to Giselle's understandable discomfort, I am reminded of
" Acknowledging What Is " and he wrote a book with that title. And so for
me, what is that Bert and Sophie have often physically, emotionally,and
spiritually abused, re-traumatized and publicly humiliated more than a few
trusting people in pain, who have appealed to them for help. For me, as a
trauma specialist, this has everything to do with power over and not much
to offer in the genuine interest of healing. As a result I have taken some
distance for many years now, and Bert's early teachings remain a profound
source of inspiration for me, still.
Watching this video, my heart hurt for many reasons. I find it quiteremarkable that thousands will travel far and pay good money to subject
themselves to such abuse and then passively sit, in unexamined,complicit,
silence,for years of top down arrogance and exploitation. In this case, the
one brave voice of protest was excluded. Is this not fascism? Human nature,
I sadly suppose...along with a persistent belief is that there has to be
some bon-bon somewhere deep within such blatant ca-.ca.
a cult of iconic personalities, and it is also important to not give up on
Individual discernment is so desperately needed...within what has become
the wealth of teachings that Bert's philosophical perspective has offered
for so many of us in profound, and for me, life changing ways. I so hope
that no one will ever take any licence to physically, emotionally or
spiritually abuse anyone ever, in blind loyal imitation of such clueless
behavior as we see on this video and many other instances, as well. Please
bear in mind that one of the most important tenets of trauma work is to
never overwhelm an already overwhelmed client and many, if not most, who
come to SCW have some history of trauma. And for me, after working for many
decades, with traumatized people in pain,my heart has come to understand
that it is often more important to be kind, than to be right.
All for now,
Anngwyn St.just Ph.D
www.acst-international.com <http://www.acst-international.com/>
http://anngwyn.wisrville.org ;<http://anngwyn.wisrville.org/>
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2cRe: What is
<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ConstellationTalk/conversations/topics/11659;_ylc=X3oDMTJybHNnMTU1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkwMDgyODcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYyMjE1BG1zZ0lkAzExNjU5BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzE0OTI2Mzc3MzQ->
Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:27 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Deborah Crowe"
<deborahcrowe@xxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20What%20is>
Thank you Anngwyn.
It seems a combination of the "Emperor's new clothes" and 'Don't throw the
baby out with the bathwater" are appropriate here.
Warm regards
Deborah
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 6:27 PM, Linda Conyard linda.conyard@xxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
simply
Beautiful Anngwyn xxxx
On 19 Apr 2017, at 4:12 pm, anngwyn@xxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Springtime Greetings from Arizona !
In response to Giselle's understandable discomfort, I am reminded of
Bert's early teachings which still resonate for me, which involves,
" *Acknowledging What Is* " and he wrote a book with that title. And sothe
for me, what is that Bert and Sophie have often physically,
emotionally,and spiritually abused, re-traumatized and publicly
humiliated more than a few trusting people in pain, who have appealed to
them for help. For me, as a trauma specialist, this has everything to do
with power over and not much to offer in the genuine interest of healing.
As a result I have taken some distance for many years now, and Bert's
early teachings remain a profound source of inspiration for me, still.
Watching this video, my heart hurt for many reasons. I find it quite
remarkable that thousands will travel far and pay good money to subject
themselves to such abuse and then passively sit, in unexamined,complicit,
silence,for years of top down arrogance and exploitation. In this case,
one brave voice of protest was excluded. Is this not fascism? Humanon
nature, I sadly suppose...along with a persistent belief is that there
has to be some bon-bon somewhere deep within such blatant ca-.ca.
Individual discernment is so desperately needed...within what has become
a cult of iconic personalities, and it is also important to not give up
the wealth of teachings that Bert's philosophical perspective has offeredPlease
for so many of us in profound, and for me, life changing ways. I so hope
that no one will ever take any licence to physically, emotionally or
spiritually abuse anyone ever, in blind loyal imitation of such clueless
behavior as we see on this video and many other instances, as well.
bear in mind that one of the most important tenets of trauma work is toright.
never overwhelm an already overwhelmed client and many, if not most, who
come to SCW have some history of trauma. And for me, after working for
many decades, with traumatized people in pain,my heart has come
to understand that it is often more important to be kind, than to be
All for now,
Anngwyn St.just Ph.D
www.acst-international.com
http://anngwyn.wisrville.org
--
Deborah Crowe
www.deborahcrowe. <http://www.deborahcrowe.info/>info
<http://www.deborahcrowe.info/>
*+64 (0) 21 776769 <+64%2021%20776%20769>*
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2dRe: What is
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Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:36 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Eimear O'Neill"
<eimear@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20What%20is>
Alice Miller, Polish-Jewish therapist, researcher and artist should be
suggested reading for working in family and systemic constellations. Her
work challenges any fundamentalist belief in the Orders of Love while
respecting history, the embodied unconscious, and the damage wrought by
parents and those in authority over others. She uncovers the roots of
fascism in childhood traumas re-enacted at collective levels. It is at the
place where there is power difference in relationship that most care needs
to be taken and where most traumatic damage is caused and most re-wounding
happens. For me as a trauma therapist, constellations training with someone
working from an indigenous perspective, supported power literacy, humility
in the face of mystery, respect for ‘resistance’ and trust in the Field.
Resistance reveals the other does not feel safe. Park your ego outside.
With trust in the Field, you don’t need to push, interpret from your
perspective and certainly not apply physical, emotional or epistemological
violence to get what you believe is a “good outcome”. We each bring our own
wounds when we step into this work. As Rumi reminds us, we each, however
lauded by others, need to “Keep an eye on the bandaged place.”
Constellations work is moving into a more self-reflective phase. I agree
with Anngywn and Deborah… in terms of publicly naming imperious
arrogance…and of honouring Hellingers’ contributions while developing our
collective capacity for understanding the historic and familial/familiar
patterns of dominance and abuse. I’d add that speaking truth to power is
important at multiple levels, to maintain our humanity in the face of the
normalized abuses of power by governments, corporations and institutions so
rampant right now. Systemic constellations helps us see those patterns. We
need to support each other in refusing to stay quiet or normalise them. Our
ancestors, past and future, are with us on this one.
Warmly
Eimear
Eimear O'Neill PhD
www.eimearoneill.com
‘If we surrendered/ to earth’s intelligence, we could rise up rooted, like
trees."Rainer Maria Rilke:
On 19 April 2017 at 06:19, Deborah Crowe deborahcrowe@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
the
Thank you Anngwyn.
It seems a combination of the "Emperor's new clothes" and 'Don't throw
baby out with the bathwater" are appropriate here.simply
Warm regards
Deborah
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 6:27 PM, Linda Conyard linda.conyard@xxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Beautiful Anngwyn xxxx
On 19 Apr 2017, at 4:12 pm, anngwyn@xxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Springtime Greetings from Arizona !
In response to Giselle's understandable discomfort, I am reminded of
Bert's early teachings which still resonate for me, which involves,
healing." *Acknowledging What Is* " and he wrote a book with that title. And so
for me, what is that Bert and Sophie have often physically,
emotionally,and spiritually abused, re-traumatized and publicly
humiliated more than a few trusting people in pain, who have appealed to
them for help. For me, as a trauma specialist, this has everything to do
with power over and not much to offer in the genuine interest of
unexamined,complicit,As a result I have taken some distance for many years now, and Bert's
early teachings remain a profound source of inspiration for me, still.
Watching this video, my heart hurt for many reasons. I find it quite
remarkable that thousands will travel far and pay good money to subject
themselves to such abuse and then passively sit, in
thesilence,for years of top down arrogance and exploitation. In this case,
onone brave voice of protest was excluded. Is this not fascism? Human
nature, I sadly suppose...along with a persistent belief is that there
has to be some bon-bon somewhere deep within such blatant ca-.ca.
Individual discernment is so desperately needed...within what has become
a cult of iconic personalities, and it is also important to not give up
offeredthe wealth of teachings that Bert's philosophical perspective has
Pleasefor so many of us in profound, and for me, life changing ways. I so hope
that no one will ever take any licence to physically, emotionally or
spiritually abuse anyone ever, in blind loyal imitation of such clueless
behavior as we see on this video and many other instances, as well.
right.bear in mind that one of the most important tenets of trauma work is to
never overwhelm an already overwhelmed client and many, if not most, who
come to SCW have some history of trauma. And for me, after working for
many decades, with traumatized people in pain,my heart has come
to understand that it is often more important to be kind, than to be
<http://www.deborahcrowe.info/>
All for now,
Anngwyn St.just Ph.D
www.acst-international.com
http://anngwyn.wisrville.org
--
Deborah Crowe
www.deborahcrowe. <http://www.deborahcrowe.info/>info
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3Physical harm by Perpetrator
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Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:15 am (PDT) . Posted by: "bizden titiz" bizdentitiz
<bizdentitiz@xxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Physical%20harm%20by%20Perpetrator>
İ guess this group is not aware of the constellation Ms SH where
Jumped up and down on a man saying that was what he deserved
And needed.
Happy this young woman's cranium is not cracked,
Then ribs were broken as i hear from witnesses!
Warm regards,
Bizden
On 19 Apr 2017, at 11:22, Joanna Malinowska joanna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
of the voice and the action.
Thank you, Christine,
I did not understand the words, I just saw the body language, the tone
There is something I have to say, "TO VIOLATE THE HIERARCHY IS LEADINGTO DEATH". Yes, this is the case, especially in totalitarian regime. Many
people sacrificed their lives challenging hierarchy. Do we call them
heroes? Hierarchy has to be challenged when it goes wrong. Otherwise we
would be like a herd of sheep blindly following the main ram. This leads to
death and destruction, and even genocide.
I am not saying that against Bert or or to undermine his past greatness.I honor him and his attribution to humanity. It just seems that his Soul is
not connected with his body and mind anymore. He is an old man now and a
human, like we all. We will all get old and we may lose this connection.
What is surprising that anybody still stayed inside the room... Somehow, we
do behave like a herd of sheep...
With Loveymail.com [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Joanna
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 6:51 PM, Christine Ruettimann christine.sarena@
that human conduct is ever unreliable. The way the "constellation" was
Dear ones
Watching this is also rather dirturbing to me. What comes to my mind is
facilitated was full of ego and without any respect and sensitivity from
both Sophie and Bert.
translation:
for those who don't understand German or Russian I give the German
big one". The daughter says to Sophie that she cannot say it, because she
Sophie forces the young woman to say to her mother: "You are here the
has so many problems. Still Sophie tries to force her. After the daughter
becomes more irritated Sophie tries the same procedure with the mother. She
orders her to say to the daughter: "You are here the little one". She can't
say it either. Sophie says "You HAVE TO honour the hierarchy", then being
frustrated walkes away. Bert says "This was a good demonstration what it
means to violate the hierarchy (ranking system)." Then someone of the group
says something and Bert asks three times. "Who was talking here?". When he
sees the woman he says "Get out of the door!" Then he says to all: "We
don't tolerate it if someone arrogates to intervene here!"
here!" Sophie says: "It's about life and death. TO VIOLATE THE HIERARCHY ISSitting down he says two times: "Now I made clear WHO is the big one
LEADING TO DEATH". ....... (resulting in dead silence)
demonstrated here is very harmful to the wonderful gift of constellation
We all make mistakes. But in my opinion the attitude that was
work.
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb am 4:24 Mittwoch, 19.April
Christine Rüttimann
Switzerland
"Joanna Malinowska joanna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]" <
2017:
and quite hard. Yet what was happening before was also forced. It was
Dear Giselle,
Yes, I could not believe my eyes. The girl was hit with a microphone,
visible that mother and daughter were connected before Sophie was trying to
force some words on the daughter. The mother smiled, the daughter was
chatting with her. Then they became more and more rigid and disconnected.
If there was trauma there, then more trauma has been added. It was also
brake of trust, I wonder if this girl will be open to any therapy in the
future.
(and no compassion), even no respect, and definitely nothing from theThis was not what Family Constellations is about as it was not love
Knowing Field. It was just acting from the power and superiority.
the TRUTH when he or she is open to it. Then the TRUTH speaks through him /When it comes to the TRUTH, nobody holds it. The person can be hold by
her. We can call TRUTH different names, God, or Spirit or just
Unconditional Love, or Universe. Unfortunately, the individuals who are
touch by TRUTH quite offer become grandiose and take it for their personal
greatness. And this is how they loose connection with TRUTH. Or there are
some other reasons, sickness or old age, and they forget. The TRUTH stays
and evolves, and we can be always grateful to them for showing us the way,
even if they do not lead anymore.
blossomingheart.ca [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>Thank you fo sharing.
With LOve
Joanna
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:19 AM, 'Heather Embree' heather@
wrote:
I have seen facilitators use physical contact with clients and it’s an act
Thanks for sharing this, Giselle. That is disturbing for me personally.
of trying to put one in place of respecting the order with a notion of
punishment. For me, that scene is publically humiliating and shuts down the
younger person from her truth and feelings. There are real cases of
parental abuse that may not be addressed (I am only going by body language
here as I don’t understand German or Russian), and it an go to further
silence someone from the truth of the issues.
helping each person see the other’s humanity, personal violence and learn
It’s not my style and rather for me the movement with any discord is
how to self-care or self-protect in the face of it.
oogroups.com]
Thank you for sharing.
Heather
From: ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ConstellationTalk@ yah
Someone sent me a video from Bert which I find quite disturbing. SinceSent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 8:40 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Orders of love and trauma
Dear ones,
I have been wanting to connect with you about this for some months…
then, I have mixed feelings... I would really appreciate you let me know
your feelings/thoughts about it.
and as a trauma therapist, I can’t accept this violence, which also seems
We know the truth he - and Sophie - are holding and yet, in my heart,
unnecessary. There is some kind of fundamentalism about the orders of love
that seems to be very disconnected. I really wonder about the effects this
has… I could say more, but I would really love if you could let me know
what your thoughts are… The video is in German and Russian… but if you
can’t understand the words, at least you can see the faces and the moment
Sophie hits a participant with the microphone, and, afterwards Bert sends
out someone who complains about this...
<http://www.interbeing.space/>
https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=hjp7Frr3QjQ
With love and gratitude,
Giselle
<http://www.interbeing.space>
www.interbeing. <http://www.interbeing.space/>space
<http://www.myhypno.com.au/>
Giselle Charbonnier
+49 (0)163 834 1924 <+49%20163%208341924>
Bevernstr. 6, 10997, Berlin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--
Joanna Malinowska
Clinical Hypnotherapist
www.myhypno. <http://www.myhypno.com.au/>com.au
<http://www.self-hypnosis.com.au/>www.self-hypnosis. <http://www.self-hypnosis.com.au/>com.au
<http://www.myhypno.com.au/>Mobile 0412 092 972
--
Joanna Malinowska
Clinical Hypnotherapist
www.myhypno. <http://www.myhypno.com.au/>com.au
www.self-hypnosis. <http://www.self-hypnosis.com.au/>com.au<http://www.self-hypnosis.com.au/>
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4aFwd: Orders of love and trauma
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Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:11 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Chuck Cogliandro" mkdrum1
<chuck@xxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Fwd%3A%20Orders%20of%20love%20and%20trauma>
To be fair, not being present in the room with the field, the issue and
the teaching, as well as not speaking either of the languages, does not
support me understanding what’s taking place in the video.
That being said, I’ve never worked with an energy of confrontation like
this, nor have I seen such an approach be effective in healing. I have
experienced re-wounding and an amplification of my defenses when such an
approach was taken with me in a healing environment. I’ve also never seen
my teachers work in this way, and they trained with Hellinger and his first
generation of trainers.
While there have been times I’ve felt guided to invite the client in
different ways to consider that their healing is on the other side of their
resistance, and sometimes suggest ways they might approach gaining a new
perspective, I always trust that their soul knows how much they are capable
to move at any time. In my experience, invitation to movement leads to
lasting change better than does coercion.
peace,
Chuck Cogliandro
Decatur, GA U.S.
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4bRe: Fwd: Orders of love and trauma
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Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:10 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Barbara Morgan"
<theknowingfield@xxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Fwd%3A%20Orders%20of%20love%20and%20trauma>
I want to endorse the first two lines of Chuck's email. I think a note of
caution is needed when we are watching a video or listening to someone
else's second or third hand reporting of a situation. If we are not
actually in the field ourselves, how can we pass fair judgement on what
happened? As Leslie points out, we are at risk of whipping ourselves up
into some kind of frenzy and becoming perpetrators ourselves in our
criticism of the perceived 'perpetrators' and what we imagine has happened.
It is very difficult to pass judgement when we are not fully in the field
ourselves. I learnt this lesson myself a long time ago. The reporting of
Bert hitting someone in the chest is particularly difficult to make a
judgement on. Some kinds of trauma therapy do include hitting people in the
chest. I have seen that in the past. It activates a kind of energetic flow
in a previously dissociated or constricted client.
Looking at this video I would tentatively suggest that maybe Sophie got
caught in the field and was trying to force an issue which would not be
forced. And I think we're all at risk of getting caught in the field if we
are to be anything other than ineffectual facilitators afraid to do
anything that might upset the client or the group. Noticing when it happens
is the key here. Not easy.
Trauma is such a hot issue and the range of approaches to it is vast. I
don't claim to have the answers as to the best approach. We each do what we
can at the time and take care to continue to do our own personal work and
inform ourselves of various ways of dealing with it as best we can. Looking
back on my own personal journey with trauma I can see that I repeatedly
unwittingly stepped into a re-traumatising field. I will never know if
those experiences were helpful or not, but for sure they were not
permanently damaging to me. What I can say is that I am strengthened by all
of my experiences of both therapy and constellation work and some of the
most difficult and painful have been the greatest learnings for me.
I personally have worked 4 times with Bert and each time I found the
experience profound and extremely helpful. I haven't worked personally with
Sophie so I can't comment fully on her approach.
Anngwyn's words about 'individual discernment' were very helpful but how do
I learn to discern? For me, it's by stepping into those difficult places.
Good wishes to all
Barbara
On 19 April 2017 at 15:11, Chuck Cogliandro chuck@xxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
first
To be fair, not being present in the room with the field, the issue and
the teaching, as well as not speaking either of the languages, does not
support me understanding what’s taking place in the video.
That being said, I’ve never worked with an energy of confrontation like
this, nor have I seen such an approach be effective in healing. I have
experienced re-wounding and an amplification of my defenses when such an
approach was taken with me in a healing environment. I’ve also never seen
my teachers work in this way, and they trained with Hellinger and his
generation of trainers.their
While there have been times I’ve felt guided to invite the client in
different ways to consider that their healing is on the other side of
resistance, and sometimes suggest ways they might approach gaining a newcapable
perspective, I always trust that their soul knows how much they are
to move at any time. In my experience, invitation to movement leads to
lasting change better than does coercion.
peace,
Chuck Cogliandro
Decatur, GA U.S.
--
Barbara Morgan
Family Constellations Trainer, Supervisor & Practitioner
Editor of
The Knowing Field
International Constellations Journal
www.cominghome. <http://www.cominghome.org.uk/>org.uk
<http://www.cominghome.org.uk/>
www.theknowingfield <http://www.theknowingfield.com/>.com
<http://www.theknowingfield.com/>
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4cRe: Fwd: Orders of love and trauma
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Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:35 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Julio Príncipe"
<principejulio@xxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Fwd%3A%20Orders%20of%20love%20and%20trauma>
Dear colleagues, I felt my own body (mind and heart, too) hurted.
To me, it's a sad reminder of our own limitations and ego. And when I write
"sad" is a kind of judgement about what someone it's supossed to be/do as a
helper (therapist, consultant, etc,). And probably I'm loyal with the
teachers in my family when I do that.
So, I try to go beyond and look at me and identify what reflects to my own
inner experiences and voices, many times "forced" by myself, many times
"self-hitted", many times in my own inner victim/perpetrator dynamic,
trying to give a place to what hurts and create pain. And also what are the
systemic consequences of this reality in my role and Presence as a
Facilitator.
I see also the consequences and limitations of what "Orders of Love" means
for everyone, specially if we put a certain model in the first place, and
the person (the Client) in the last place.
At the end of this post, I reminde to myself what Roman philsopher
Terencium said "I am human, and I think that nothing of that which is
human is alien to me".
Hugs from Peru,
Julio
PS.- Thanks to Giselle for open up to this beautiful and supportive
Community this topic, and also I'm grateful for all what I learn from
different perspectives and experiences.
2017-04-19 16:10 GMT-05:00 Barbara Morgan theknowingfield@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
happened.
I want to endorse the first two lines of Chuck's email. I think a note of
caution is needed when we are watching a video or listening to someone
else's second or third hand reporting of a situation. If we are not
actually in the field ourselves, how can we pass fair judgement on what
happened? As Leslie points out, we are at risk of whipping ourselves up
into some kind of frenzy and becoming perpetrators ourselves in our
criticism of the perceived 'perpetrators' and what we imagine has
It is very difficult to pass judgement when we are not fully in the fieldthe
ourselves. I learnt this lesson myself a long time ago. The reporting of
Bert hitting someone in the chest is particularly difficult to make a
judgement on. Some kinds of trauma therapy do include hitting people in
chest. I have seen that in the past. It activates a kind of energeticflow
in a previously dissociated or constricted client.we
Looking at this video I would tentatively suggest that maybe Sophie got
caught in the field and was trying to force an issue which would not be
forced. And I think we're all at risk of getting caught in the field if
are to be anything other than ineffectual facilitators afraid to dohappens
anything that might upset the client or the group. Noticing when it
is the key here. Not easy.we
Trauma is such a hot issue and the range of approaches to it is vast. I
don't claim to have the answers as to the best approach. We each do what
can at the time and take care to continue to do our own personal work andLooking
inform ourselves of various ways of dealing with it as best we can.
back on my own personal journey with trauma I can see that I repeatedlyall
unwittingly stepped into a re-traumatising field. I will never know if
those experiences were helpful or not, but for sure they were not
permanently damaging to me. What I can say is that I am strengthened by
of my experiences of both therapy and constellation work and some of thewith
most difficult and painful have been the greatest learnings for me.
I personally have worked 4 times with Bert and each time I found the
experience profound and extremely helpful. I haven't worked personally
Sophie so I can't comment fully on her approach.seen
Anngwyn's words about 'individual discernment' were very helpful but how
do I learn to discern? For me, it's by stepping into those difficult
places.
Good wishes to all
Barbara
On 19 April 2017 at 15:11, Chuck Cogliandro chuck@xxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
To be fair, not being present in the room with the field, the issue and
the teaching, as well as not speaking either of the languages, does not
support me understanding what’s taking place in the video.
That being said, I’ve never worked with an energy of confrontation like
this, nor have I seen such an approach be effective in healing. I have
experienced re-wounding and an amplification of my defenses when such an
approach was taken with me in a healing environment. I’ve also never
firstmy teachers work in this way, and they trained with Hellinger and his
theirgeneration of trainers.
While there have been times I’ve felt guided to invite the client in
different ways to consider that their healing is on the other side of
capableresistance, and sometimes suggest ways they might approach gaining a new
perspective, I always trust that their soul knows how much they are
<http://www.cominghome.org.uk/>to move at any time. In my experience, invitation to movement leads to
lasting change better than does coercion.
peace,
Chuck Cogliandro
Decatur, GA U.S.
--
Barbara Morgan
Family Constellations Trainer, Supervisor & Practitioner
Editor of
The Knowing Field
International Constellations Journal
www.cominghome. <http://www.cominghome.org.uk/>org.uk
www.theknowingfield <http://www.theknowingfield.com/>.com<http://www.theknowingfield.com/>
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