blind_html Re: List name

  • From: "The Elf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <blind_html@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:29:39 -0800

thanks, I lost a lot of my well trimmed and filed notes a short while back and am still trying to catch things up, and locate a good and accessible disk recovery program.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Nimer" <nimerjaber1@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <blind_html@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 4:07 PM
Subject: blind_html Re: List name

Also, the screen reader for Ubuntu Linux is Orca. Or, I should say that Orca works with many distros of Linux, as long as they're running gnome I forget which version. Not sure of the page here either, but a quick search on google should pop up the result.

Nimer J

Nimer M. Jaber

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The Elf wrote:
alright Blaine, sorry for the confusion, lol.
I haven't herd of a few of the browsers your using except for IE of course and firefox, and have herd of opera which you mentioned a bit later but don't know of anyone who uses it myself, you may want to take franks suggestion on the demo of jaws, and I do believe window eyes has a download that can be used in a similar fashion, . on the troubles with windows updates and the windows OS, ? unless your like me and thrash an OS with heavy use and abuse, like trying out several versions of a program type for screen reader/jaws compatibility, you shouldn't be having so much trouble, I get almost every update as there produced, and my OS runs fine here, no registry glitches at all. are you by chance using a modified system for greater speed, or possibly a "registry cleaner" that may actually be doing damage?
I just did an update yesterday and as you can see, I'm running just fine.
there is an screen reader made for the Ubuntu version of Linux, I don't have there URL handy, but someone on the list should. the lines are not really well "seen" by screen readers, the newest three jaws versions do give a note to us about horizontal rule lines but not as a navigation item, just a sort of "passing note". on the page of links issue, hmmm, could it be divided into sections with headers, in jaws at least, you can jump from header to header either in a "next header" mode or we can jump to the next header of a particular size with a set of quick key strokes.
 if not, then its one of those instances where you just grin and bear it.
on the java thing, I have run into a lot of trouble with java, but as I was reading your reply, I thought a bit harder and the moderate view is probably the more likely correct one, visual effects, bad, menu's not good, ones that (and I found this after I sent out my reply) modify the page formatting, fine, date and time and other such items, and your mail address scrambler are not a problem, and except for when one of us wishes to view the code of a page to see "how that was done" even an java script to call up the appropriate web page insertion for a specific selection I believe is alright. one item I do know is a bad thing are the java scripts that call up a pop up window with a definition or specification sheet that many places use, we get a header of some scrambled java script call, and nothing else off the page, and can't move in the page at all.
 the font sounds great, in fact I'm going to make a note of it, smile.
as to the change colors stuff, there are a lot of blind or visually impaired "doodlers" out here, folks that are just computer active enough to open e mails and type out notes or make a recipe in a text file, and can learn to do some online shopping, but trying to fix, do maintains on, or alter there computers settings, "lords no!" as there faces turn ghostly white. so having at least the dark on light and light on dark options is considered a good item to give the options for. another thing I forgot about in my prior message, some places offer two pages, there home page will have an "accessible pages" link near the top, that will present the same page, minus the graphics and fancy stuff for those using magnifiers and readers. alright just took a look at the web pages, the first one is fine, I could find things, things were in a definite order and laid out as one would expect. the second one now... oof, there seems to be a H2 header that was not closed, and things are, to my screen reader scattered all over the place, what feels like nav links are in the middle and bottom of the page, I get reoccurring multiple headers mentioned to me (part of the readers functions) and some seem housed inside of others. I think the side bar is partially to blame, I have no clear indication from my reader where main page stops and side bar begins, so I get stuff all over the placed. imagine if you would, taking the side bar just as you see it, and overlaying it onto the main page, making items on the mane page randomly move up or down to accommodate the side bar items, so everything is there, is readable, but scrambled together. this is one place where "frames" are a good thing, most screen readers have learned to accommodate them, and it does give a distinct break and order to the frames for reading so things don't get "scrambled".
 the sub page looks fine, all is readable and in a proper seeming order.
another resource you might wish to tap into, is the "blind webbers" group at,
send a blank e mail to:
blindwebbers-subscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blindwebbers-subscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
with subscribe in the subject line
 I hope all this is of assistance to you,
 take care,

    ----- Original Message -----
    *From:* Robin L. Clark <mailto:lighthouse101@xxxxxxxxxxx>
    *To:* blind_html@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind_html@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    *Sent:* Thursday, November 20, 2008 1:01 AM
    *Subject:* blind_html Re: List name

    Hey Elf;
     I'm using these browsers to test my pages; Internet Explorer,
    FireFox with Fire Vox screen reader (a bit of a pain to get it
    working half decent), Safari, WebIE with Thunder screen reader
    (not too bad) and Opera under Windows XP Pro. My old computer took
    a dump after a Microsoft update a few weeks ago messed the
    registry system up beyond restore and I'm using my wife's
    computer. Her name is Robin, I'm Blaine. I'm toying with the idea
    of doing a clean install on the old computer with some
    distribution of Linux, probably Ubuntu or Fedora. I'd like to do
    this for two main reasons. To get rid of Microsoft. I've had
    trouble after every single major security update since about
    February. We've got one friend who's had trouble with Internet
    Explorer not connecting, which was our problem mostly. Every other
    browser worked just fine but not IE. Another friend has lost
    connection with Outlook Express. He has to use his browser to go
    online to his ISP and get his email that way. I think MS has
    finally updated themselves into some trouble this summer. The
    other reason I'd like to use Linux is that it's used commercially
    by many companies and also by a fairly large chunk of the public,
    especially in England and parts of Europe. I think it might be a
    good idea to use it and some compatible open source browsers to
    make sure everything is OK for those who use Linux. I don't know
if there are any comparable accessibility programs, but I'll find out.
     I've looked over and also a few other 'authorities'. To
    say the tutorials are a bit misleading is OK, but when
    different 'authorities' can't agree on what is good page
    structure, then it's pretty much just do something and see how it
    goes for anyone who has the time to check what's been done and get
    back with a critique. For example, some authorities say don't use
    Java Script for anything, others say it's OK except for visual
    effects which can mess up some screen readers. Some say don't use
    any graphics, others say graphics are OK as long as they are
    tagged with alt or title or both.
     Headers? I like headers because I'm sighted and they stand out.
    Didn't realize they worked well for VI's too. Great!
     I've used headers and small graphic bars in place of HR code. Now
    I'm wondering if the little bars are too much. Back to the HR
    code, how well do screen readers interpret that? Would I be better
    off using HR?
     Hmm... Didn't know about the graphic's name and link problem with
    screen readers. I haven't used them and so hadn't tested any of
    them with my so - so screen readers. I'll file that bit of info
    away for later.
     I knew that graphics were a bit of a hog, just didn't know how
    much with screen readers.
     I've heard that frames and iframes are a no - no by some, and OK
    by others, so I stay away from them. I have used a bit of list
    formatting, the ordered, unordered and definitions styles. Haven't
    done much with tables.
     I haven't used Java Script for anything except obfuscating email
    address and playing around with a site search utility so far.
     I haven't tried one bit of CGI or PHP yet. I'm still playing
    around learning HTML and CSS and a bit of Java Script. Speaking of
    CSS, I've got a CSS styled drop down menu that works exactly like
    the Java Script drop down menu. I haven't used it in a page yet
    because I'm not sure how screen readers handle that. I'm a bit
    leery since it does work and move just like the Java Script type.
     Now, pages with a ton of links ... I've done that. Didn't know it
    was such a pain. Is there a decent way to present a large lineup
    of links? I've got one page each of local support links,
    state-wide support links, US support links and world-wide support
    links. That's four pages full! I'd like to keep them available.
    When I started the links, I had them all on one page and it grew
    into a little monster, so I cut it up, but it's a hydra! It keeps
     Graphics again. This brings up an interesting one ... the one
    group I belong to just had a convention and when they get the
    videos and some pictures processed, they'd like me to arrange them
    on some pages. I've started a rough draft until I get a handle of
    some sort on the size, type and number of files. I've got them set
    up from the main index page to a visual index page. That way,
    totals or very low vision people can just bypass that index
    file altogether.
     For a font I use Arial Rounded MT bold, Helvetica, Sans Serif. I
    read a report that claimed this font was the best all around one
    to use for low vision and full vision viewing. I have to agree
    that it does look good and it reads easy. I load it in the body
    statement in a CSS file but I don't make any part of the
    CSS persistent, so that anyone who has styles set for their
    personal browser or magnifier shouldn't have a problem over-riding
    my CSS.
     For the state PCB site I've used a light tan background with black
    font. That went over well with all the low visions that checked
    the pages. And I now see that's the primary format on the AFB
    site! Too much contrast, like black on white, white on black, red
    on green and several others can be very tiring to look at. As a
    guess, anyone who has a screen magnifier program would probably
    have their browser and magnifier set to display everything to what
    they prefer, so really, isn't the change colors and more page a
    bit redundant?
     I've worked with the Pennsylvania Council of the Blind main state
    organization's Communications Committee to cleanup and brighten up
    their site. It's
    I'm also working solo on a main site and a sub-site for our local
    chapter of the PCB. The main site is and there's no way I can clean
    up all the PBwiki clutter on those pages. I don't have access to
    that part of it.
    The sub-site is one level below the previous
    site, It's
    clean of the PBwiki page coding. For the sub-site, I've used a
    combination of background images and background colors from page
    to page. Waiting to get more input on which is preferred. Later
    on, I think I'll trim the upper directory to probably one
    introductory page and direct to the index file in the subdirectory.
     Thanks Elf

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