Hi Sylvie,
Very well put. The Blindness is a given, and the Democracy is the opportunity
for learning and growth.
Charlie Crawford.
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of S. Kashdan
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 8:00 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Sanders endorses Clinton: Laws of political
physics confirmed
Hi all,
I think that when we share information and ideas, all of us need to remember
that we aren't teachers but peers. Even if any one of us has read or heard
or experienced things that others haven't been exposed to yet, none of us
has all of the answers about how to understand things. Respecting others
expressed ideas and conclusions should be a given, as long as the other's
ideas or conclusions do not involve attacking, discriminating against,
degrading or oppressing anyone. If someone feels that any specific ideas or
conclusions involve any of that kind of thing, I think it is most effective
to explain why they think that is the case, rather than attacking or trying
to classify the person's motivations for having those ideas or coming to
those conclusions.
As far as I am concerned, one of the functions of a list like Blind
Democracy is to encourage each of us to consider ideas and information we
haven't dealt with before and, as adults, then come to our own conclusions.
There are many reasons we might not all come to the same conclusions about
various topics, even after being given a lot of information and analysis
that lead the person who presented them to come to any specific conclusions.
I don't think that it is helpful to try to classify anyone's ideas as wrong
or to categorize them based on guessed motivations. And, I don't think that
taking such an approach teaches or convinces anyone either.
For justice and peace,
Sylvie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)"
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 12:07 PM
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Sanders endorses Clinton: Laws of political
physics confirmed
I should hope so. Like I said, when you see that another person does not
understand something what can you be expected to do but to explain it.
When a person gets all bent out of shape just because something has been
explained to them that person has some kind of problem that goes beyond
plain ignorance. When you add the hostility over having had something
explained to you to a claim of meanings in the words that are used that
somehow go beyond the plain clear meanings of the words and those
assumed extra and hidden meanings are crafted so as to hostilely
criticize the person who has tried to explain something it really looks
like a deliberate attempt to start a fight. Think about it. If you smile
at someone and say good morning and the person says, "Your smiling at
me. You must be condescending to me. Why are you insulting me by saying
good morning?" then wouldn't you suspect that the person is trying to
start a fight with you, a fight that you have no interest in pursuing?
That is exactly how I feel. One time I offer some hopefully helpful
suggestions to someone having an email problem and I am accused of being
condescending. Another time I say that someone is a bourgeois liberal
and I am accused of hurling insults as if I had said fart face instead
of bourgeois liberal. Sometimes I offer my personal opinion and it is
dismissed as Marxist theory as if being Marxist theory automatically
means that it is invalid while it was only a personal opinion and had
nothing to do with Marxist theory. Honestly, I don't seem to be able to
offer the slightest comment on this list without someone trying to start
a fight over it.
On 7/17/2016 2:27 PM, Frank Ventura wrote:
Miriam, I realize that was directed to Roger but if I can pop in, please
bear with me. I honestly feel badly that you believe that any of us who
share our areas of expertise is assuming some sort of superior position. I
have never viewed it like that. We each have our passions andindividual
strengths. When I offer my knowledge in an area of my expertise I never
believed it to be anything but a peer to peer information exchange, and
vice versa, remember King Arthur's round table where no Knight was at the
head of the table? Knowing what you just let us know may may me think
differently before sharing my own knowledge and experiences.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Miriam Vieni
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 9:53 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Sanders endorses Clinton: Laws of political
physics confirmed
I guess that one of my problems is that I resent anyone on this list,
feeling that he is "educating" me. I appreciate exchanging points of view
and arguing about them. But when someone says that he's trying to educate
me, he is assuming a superior position. I understand that you know more
about Marxist theory than I do and I don't mind hearing references to it
or reading the articles that you post. But I feel as you might, if a
devoted Christian was participating on this list and felt that it was
necessary to teach us the Christian interpretation of each issue that
comes up. And if he reminded us that many of our opinions are antiChrist
and we are, therefore sinners. I understand that you believe that you are
educating us about a scientific point of view and that, therefore, there
is no comparison. But, that is how it feels. In spite of your wish that I
omit feelings from our discussions, feelings are an inate part of human
perception and behavior and they even creep into what you consider to be,
factual discussion. They are what makes communicating by email so
difficult because email omits the nuances of communication which help it
along like tone of voice, gesture, facial expression. Well for us, it's
just tone of voice.
And, since I absolutely don't accept our capitalist system as it presently
exists , even though you think I do, I have difficulty understanding why
you think that I can't think , "out of the box", as you put it. Of
course, since I don't accept a classical marxist system either, and I
expressed some ideas about the kind of system I'd like, I don't think that
I fit into these categories to which you're assigning people. Of course,
the kind of system that I want is sort of mixed. It comes from the ideas
of many people. But I surrender to your need to place me in one of your
boxes so long as doing that doesn't end a discussion of more importrant
issues like whether Sanders sold out, or could have done something
different, or what the reaction of his supporters is now, or what
influence he has, or hasn't had on the the Democratic Party. You perhaps
inadvertently, shut off a discussion, once you say that "he's always been
a bourgeois liberal anyway" because that term only has meaning to died in
the wool Marxists.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger Loran ;
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 10:32 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Sanders endorses Clinton: Laws of political
physics confirmed
It would work a lot better if you would talk about the ideas and leave the
feelings out. In this email you are again attributing things to me that
are simply not true and that are positions I have never taken. To focus on
only the one that sparked this discussion you say that I used the phrase
bourgeois liberal to demean Sanders' position. I did not. In response to
Charlie's mention of those who think Sanders sold out I said that I don't
think he sold out. He has been a bourgeois liberal all along. For whatever
reason you decided that was a phrase of insult. As a matter of fact, I
sure don't consider it a compliment, but it describes exactly what he is.
Again, I have explained that before, but in response to your assumptions
about it that ignored everything I had said about bourgeois liberalism
before I explained exactly what it is. It is not just an insult like pig
face or donkey dick. It actually means something. Now, you said that you
do not like to debate just for the sake of debate. The same applies to me
and I was not trying to debate for the sake of debating or for any other
reason. What I was trying to do was to educate just like most of the
things I say on this list are for. I have information to impart and I
impart it. Deliberate misinterpretations of what I am trying to teach do
not help with that though. Now, you said that I would probably describe
you as a bourgeois liberal too. You described your own position and you do
qualify as a bourgeois liberal. Ever since I first subscribed to this list
that has been clear to me. I have commented before that you have been
confined in that liberal box for so long that not only do you not think
outside the box, but you do not even realize that there is an outside of
the box to think about. I kind of wonder if that is the reason you have
such a difficult time understanding what I have to say. It does seem to go
right over your head. But worse than going right over your head is when
you misrepresent what I say. As a bourgeois liberal, though, you should be
aware of this. The word bourgeois in bourgeois liberal does not refer to
the class status of the bourgeois liberal. It is an adjective that
modifies the word liberal as an ideology. The word liberal can and is used
in other senses and so as to avoid misinterpretations of the word the word
bourgeois is attached. A bourgeois liberal is someone who adheres to the
bourgeois ideology of liberalism. A billionaire can be a bourgeois
liberal, in which case the person in question is actually bourgeois as
well as ideologically bourgeois, or a bourgeois liberal can be a farm
worker who is breaking his back in a field. The latter would, of course,
not be a very advanced worker. In any case, it would be well for you to
take me to mean what I actually mean. If you don't know what I mean you
can ask me just like you did this time despite the fact that I had
explained what I was talking about so many times before. When You ask I
will explain. But then what you have to do is to accept it. Do not claim
that I mean things that I do not mean and explicitly say that I do not
mean. When I explain exactly what I mean by, for example, bourgeois
liberal do not claim that I really mean something else. When you do that
you are calling me a liar without any evidence to support the charge. If I
call you a fart face then I am insulting you. If I call you a bourgeois
liberal it is not an insult. It simply is what you are and you have shown
repeatedly that it is what you are. To claim that I am using it as an
insult simply totally misrepresents what I am saying.
On 7/16/2016 9:43 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Roger,
I'm sorry. I just talk about ideas and feelings. I don't even know how to
participate in a debate for the sake of debating. You don't like my
answer because I resist the Marxist framework which you are imposing on
the discussion. I'm refusing to stay within the definitions of reality
that you provide and I'm resisting the Marxist labels that you are
assigning to various people in the discussions we have.
Yes, you gave the classic definition of the term, bourgeois liberal. I
get that. You used it to demean Ssanders' position. At the moment, I'm
not exactly delighted with what Sanders did, although I suspect I know
why he did it. You would also use that term to describe me, I imagine,
although my position on politics and economics is different from Sanders
in many ways. But if neither of us accepts what I call, "state
capitalism" and what you call, "socialism", you will use the same term to
describe both of us. That's like describing a Quaker, a Unitarian, and a
born again Christian, as being "religious Christians", and seeing no
difference between them.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 8:14 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Sanders endorses Clinton: Laws of
political physics confirmed
Miriam, you explicitly asked me to explain what I meant by bourgeois
liberal if I was not using it as an epithet. I answered you. It has a
specific meaning and you went right ahead in your next message and said
that I am using it as an epithet anyway. At least when I have explained
this concept before you have waited a while before acting like I never
explained it, but this time you did in the very message that was a reply
to my explanation. Then you gave a long list of things that you claim
that I said that I never did say. I don't care to go through each and
every one and show how you are trying to straw man me, but let me explain
how a straw man argument is made. When you can't refute a position you
make up another position and represent it as the position that you are
claiming to refute and then refute that position. An example would be
someone claiming that chocolate ice cream tastes good and then you saying
that the person must be a vanilla fanatic because he said that vanilla
ice cream tasted good. This works when your audience has never heard the
original position made by the person who you are parodying. In their
ignorance they might assume that you are refuting the actual position of
the person in question. When it does not work is when you distort the
position right back to the person who made it and to people who were
right there when that person took that position.
That is exactly what you have just tried to do. You are telling me what
I have said that I know very well I have not said and you are
persistently claiming that I am using a phrase as an epithet right after
I have explained that the phrase has a specific meaning and explained
what that meaning is.
On 7/16/2016 5:23 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
You get that feeling because, although I understand your explanation, I
don't accept your using the term as an epithet and because I don't think
that because an individual accepts Capitalism as an economic system,
that means that he inevitably accepts the exploitation of workers. What
I think is that if Capitalism is properly regulated, it is no worse for
the average person than "state capitalism" which is an alternative term
for what you describe as "socialism". The "socialist"state can be just
as arbitrary and can crush individual rights as can the capitalist
state. A socialist state can be bureaucratic and heartless. Yes, I would
like workers to operate the businesses in which they work, and I would
like to get rid of for profit corporations and stock holders and the
financialization of the economy. But I don't want to stop people from
owning small businesses or their own farms. I don't want anything that
resembles any of the Communist countries that I've known about, even if
they were supposedly moving toward a withering away of the state. Human
beings' need for power and control won't ever let that happen. So
whatever it's called, I want it to be regulated. I want checks and
balances, and I want it to be small. Small banks, small companies, local
control. And that doesn't make me a reactionary or anti-human or
whatever you mean when you say bourgois liberal because when you say
that, you are being judgmental. You're saying that if I don't agree with
the model of socialism that you espouse, I'm sort of beneath contempt,
or, at least, that if what I want doesn't fit your definition of
socialism, then I have no right to use the word, socialist. But you
know, there are people writing about other kinds of socialism like
Richard Wolfe. There are people who don't use the Marxist model as if it
were the Gospel, the one and only truth. It's just a concept, Marx
conceptualized it one way. People have other ideas about it. An analogy
is Psychoanalysis. Freud gave us a very useful conceptual framework
through which to view human psychology. Some people refuse to deviate
from Freudian theory. Other people have used it as a useful basis for
moving on and widening their understanding of human behavior.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger
Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 4:02 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Sanders endorses Clinton: Laws of
political physics confirmed
Okay, I'll explain it again. It seems like I have explained this many,
many times now. A socialist is one who advocates for the public
ownership and democratic control of the means of production. This is the
minimum to be a socialist. It does not mention any ideas of how this
state of affairs might be achieved. It is just the most basic of
definitions of socialism. One who does not advocate for that state of
affairs is not a socialist and if he calls himself a socialist he is
playing the same game that the right-wingers who call Obama, Clinton or
Biden socialists are playing. Among capitalist ideologues there are
varieties too. One can be a capitalist ideologue by advocating blatantly
for capitalism or one may be a capitalist ideologue just by accepting it
and never even considering an alternative. Either way one is either
promoting or accepting the rule of the capitalist class which is the
bourgeoisie. Bourgeois liberals are most often in charge of granting
concessions when the bourgeoisie deem it necessary in order to pacify
attempts by the masses to relieve their own plight. Bourgeois liberals
seem to think they can make capitalism somehow nicer and that will solve
all the problems that capitalism causes. It does not even enter their
minds that capitalism is an exploitative system. It does not enter their
minds that we might be better off without capitalism. It is their
acceptance of the rule of the bourgeoisie that makes them ideologically
bourgeois. This describes Bernie Sanders perfectly. He has never
advocated in the slightest bit that the majority of the people, the
workers, should control the means of production and the economy. He does
claim to admire Eugene Debs, but Eugene Debs's politics were radically
at odds with any of the politics that Bernie Sanders has ever promoted.
If Debs was alive now he would be declaring Bernie Sanders an enemy of
his class. Now, at your request I have explained this again. Why is it
that I get the feeling that the next time I mention bourgeois liberals
you will repeat the same thing and say that I am just using the term as
an insult or demeaning phrase as if I have never explained what a
bourgeois liberal is before?
On 7/16/2016 3:26 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
That's because, in my view, you are stereotyping everyone who isn't a
Marxist. When you call someone a "bourgeois liberal", it is as if you
are using a dirty word to describe them, as if there is no difference
among people who consider themselves to be Liberals or Progressives,
and as if whatever position they take, they have no moral sstanding.
It's demeaning. If you meant something different by your comment,
perhaps you can explain what it was.
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger
Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 2:49 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Sanders endorses Clinton: Laws of
political physics confirmed
I didn't even think he was selling out. He has never been anything but
a bourgeois liberal anyway.
On 7/16/2016 10:49 AM, Charles Crawford wrote:
Hi Alice, Miriam, Roger, and all,
I listened to the Sanders endorsement of Clinton and while the
idealistic side of me was saying he was selling out, the practical side
of me acknowledged he did a really good endorsement of Hilary and most
importantly, she stands the best chance of defeating Trump. I fully
know that there are those who will say that my political calculus is
too cynical and perhaps it is, but I just cannot stomach the idea of
Trump and I think Sanders has had a positive effect on the Democratic
Party.
Short and not so sweet, but that is how I see it.
Charlie Crawford.
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice ;
Dampman Humel
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 9:19 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Sanders endorses Clinton: Laws of
political physics confirmed
that’s one thing that never seems to change…all those who have even a
glimmer of hope find themselves bitterly disappointed...
On Jul 13, 2016, at 2:01 PM, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
One of the articles I posted last night said it all. Basically, Sanders
did not follow through on his promise to take the fight to the
convention. Had he not endorsed Clinton, he might have had leverage to
get a better deal on the platform. He might have asked about the
uncounted California votes. He might have made the case to super
delegates that he could get more votes than Clinton in order to keep
the Presidency out of Trump's hands. But he caved to pressure. I know
that most probably, had he done that and actually won the presidency,
not much would have changed. But all of those young people who had
faith that they could have an impact, that they can change the system,
would not have been so bitterly disappointed. Only the most motivated
and dedicated will keep fighting for change now.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger Loran ;
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 12:13 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Sanders endorses Clinton: Laws of
political physics confirmed
https://socialistaction.org/2016/07/12/sanders-endorses-clinton-laws
-
o
f-political-physics-confirmed/
Sanders endorses Clinton: Laws of political physics confirmed
/ 13 hours ago
June 2016 Clinton-Bernie
By JEFF MACKLER
— Jeff Mackler is the Socialist Action candidate for U.S. president
$33+ million and one year later, Bernie Sanders’ orchestrated
“political revolution” fell back to earth with a dull but expected and
pitiful thump, as he endorsed Wall Street’s corporate-funded Hillary
Clinton with a resounding “The future will be shaped more on November 8
[Election Day] than by any event in the world.”
Those who believed that Sanders was never a conscious sheepherder for
the ever-discredited Democrats will now march with him to the beat of
the “lesser evil” Clinton drum, even as she pledges to find common
ground with her Republican colleagues.
Those who are awakening to the inherent horrors of capitalism’s racist,
sexist, warmongering twin corporate duopoly will not be surprised. For
them, the future will be shaped not by those who profit from climate
catastrophe and endless wars against poor and working people abroad and
at home, but by the millions who take their lives into their own hands
and struggle on every front for humanity’s cause and for the socialist
future.
Join the vote for Socialist Action in the 2016 campaign!
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July 12, 2016 in Elections, Vote Socialist Action. Tags: Clinton,
Sanders
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