I should hope so. Like I said, when you see that another person does not
understand something what can you be expected to do but to explain it.
When a person gets all bent out of shape just because something has been
explained to them that person has some kind of problem that goes beyond
plain ignorance. When you add the hostility over having had something
explained to you to a claim of meanings in the words that are used that
somehow go beyond the plain clear meanings of the words and those
assumed extra and hidden meanings are crafted so as to hostilely
criticize the person who has tried to explain something it really looks
like a deliberate attempt to start a fight. Think about it. If you smile
at someone and say good morning and the person says, "Your smiling at
me. You must be condescending to me. Why are you insulting me by saying
good morning?" then wouldn't you suspect that the person is trying to
start a fight with you, a fight that you have no interest in pursuing?
That is exactly how I feel. One time I offer some hopefully helpful
suggestions to someone having an email problem and I am accused of being
condescending. Another time I say that someone is a bourgeois liberal
and I am accused of hurling insults as if I had said fart face instead
of bourgeois liberal. Sometimes I offer my personal opinion and it is
dismissed as Marxist theory as if being Marxist theory automatically
means that it is invalid while it was only a personal opinion and had
nothing to do with Marxist theory. Honestly, I don't seem to be able to
offer the slightest comment on this list without someone trying to start
a fight over it.
On 7/17/2016 2:27 PM, Frank Ventura wrote:
Miriam, I realize that was directed to Roger but if I can pop in, please bear
with me. I honestly feel badly that you believe that any of us who share our
areas of expertise is assuming some sort of superior position. I have never
viewed it like that. We each have our passions andindividual strengths. When I
offer my knowledge in an area of my expertise I never believed it to be
anything but a peer to peer information exchange, and vice versa, remember King
Arthur's round table where no Knight was at the head of the table? Knowing what
you just let us know may may me think differently before sharing my own
knowledge and experiences.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Miriam Vieni
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 9:53 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Sanders endorses Clinton: Laws of political
physics confirmed
I guess that one of my problems is that I resent anyone on this list, feeling that he is
"educating" me. I appreciate exchanging points of view and arguing about them.
But when someone says that he's trying to educate me, he is assuming a superior position.
I understand that you know more about Marxist theory than I do and I don't mind hearing
references to it or reading the articles that you post. But I feel as you might, if a
devoted Christian was participating on this list and felt that it was necessary to teach
us the Christian interpretation of each issue that comes up. And if he reminded us that
many of our opinions are antiChrist and we are, therefore sinners. I understand that you
believe that you are educating us about a scientific point of view and that, therefore,
there is no comparison. But, that is how it feels. In spite of your wish that I omit
feelings from our discussions, feelings are an inate part of human perception and
behavior and they even creep into what you consider to be, factual discussion. They are
what makes communicating by email so difficult because email omits the nuances of
communication which help it along like tone of voice, gesture, facial expression. Well
for us, it's just tone of voice.
And, since I absolutely don't accept our capitalist system as it presently exists , even though you
think I do, I have difficulty understanding why you think that I can't think , "out of the
box", as you put it. Of course, since I don't accept a classical marxist system either, and I
expressed some ideas about the kind of system I'd like, I don't think that I fit into these
categories to which you're assigning people. Of course, the kind of system that I want is sort of
mixed. It comes from the ideas of many people. But I surrender to your need to place me in one of
your boxes so long as doing that doesn't end a discussion of more importrant issues like whether
Sanders sold out, or could have done something different, or what the reaction of his supporters is
now, or what influence he has, or hasn't had on the the Democratic Party. You perhaps
inadvertently, shut off a discussion, once you say that "he's always been a bourgeois liberal
anyway" because that term only has meaning to died in the wool Marxists.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] ;
On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 10:32 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Sanders endorses Clinton: Laws of political
physics confirmed
It would work a lot better if you would talk about the ideas and leave the
feelings out. In this email you are again attributing things to me that are
simply not true and that are positions I have never taken. To focus on only the
one that sparked this discussion you say that I used the phrase bourgeois
liberal to demean Sanders' position. I did not. In response to Charlie's
mention of those who think Sanders sold out I said that I don't think he sold
out. He has been a bourgeois liberal all along. For whatever reason you decided
that was a phrase of insult. As a matter of fact, I sure don't consider it a
compliment, but it describes exactly what he is. Again, I have explained that
before, but in response to your assumptions about it that ignored everything I
had said about bourgeois liberalism before I explained exactly what it is. It
is not just an insult like pig face or donkey dick. It actually means
something. Now, you said that you do not like to debate just for the sake of
debate. The same applies to me and I was not trying to debate for the sake of
debating or for any other reason. What I was trying to do was to educate just
like most of the things I say on this list are for. I have information to
impart and I impart it. Deliberate misinterpretations of what I am trying to
teach do not help with that though. Now, you said that I would probably
describe you as a bourgeois liberal too. You described your own position and
you do qualify as a bourgeois liberal. Ever since I first subscribed to this
list that has been clear to me. I have commented before that you have been
confined in that liberal box for so long that not only do you not think outside
the box, but you do not even realize that there is an outside of the box to
think about. I kind of wonder if that is the reason you have such a difficult
time understanding what I have to say. It does seem to go right over your head.
But worse than going right over your head is when you misrepresent what I say.
As a bourgeois liberal, though, you should be aware of this. The word bourgeois
in bourgeois liberal does not refer to the class status of the bourgeois
liberal. It is an adjective that modifies the word liberal as an ideology. The
word liberal can and is used in other senses and so as to avoid
misinterpretations of the word the word bourgeois is attached. A bourgeois
liberal is someone who adheres to the bourgeois ideology of liberalism. A
billionaire can be a bourgeois liberal, in which case the person in question is
actually bourgeois as well as ideologically bourgeois, or a bourgeois liberal
can be a farm worker who is breaking his back in a field. The latter would, of
course, not be a very advanced worker. In any case, it would be well for you to
take me to mean what I actually mean. If you don't know what I mean you can ask
me just like you did this time despite the fact that I had explained what I was
talking about so many times before. When You ask I will explain. But then what
you have to do is to accept it. Do not claim that I mean things that I do not
mean and explicitly say that I do not mean. When I explain exactly what I mean
by, for example, bourgeois liberal do not claim that I really mean something
else. When you do that you are calling me a liar without any evidence to
support the charge. If I call you a fart face then I am insulting you. If I
call you a bourgeois liberal it is not an insult. It simply is what you are and
you have shown repeatedly that it is what you are. To claim that I am using it
as an insult simply totally misrepresents what I am saying.
On 7/16/2016 9:43 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Roger,
I'm sorry. I just talk about ideas and feelings. I don't even know how to
participate in a debate for the sake of debating. You don't like my answer
because I resist the Marxist framework which you are imposing on the
discussion. I'm refusing to stay within the definitions of reality that you
provide and I'm resisting the Marxist labels that you are assigning to various
people in the discussions we have.
Yes, you gave the classic definition of the term, bourgeois liberal. I get that. You used it to demean
Ssanders' position. At the moment, I'm not exactly delighted with what Sanders did, although I suspect I
know why he did it. You would also use that term to describe me, I imagine, although my position on politics
and economics is different from Sanders in many ways. But if neither of us accepts what I call, "state
capitalism" and what you call, "socialism", you will use the same term to describe both of us.
That's like describing a Quaker, a Unitarian, and a born again Christian, as being "religious
Christians", and seeing no difference between them.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 8:14 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Sanders endorses Clinton: Laws of
political physics confirmed
Miriam, you explicitly asked me to explain what I meant by bourgeois liberal if
I was not using it as an epithet. I answered you. It has a specific meaning and
you went right ahead in your next message and said that I am using it as an
epithet anyway. At least when I have explained this concept before you have
waited a while before acting like I never explained it, but this time you did
in the very message that was a reply to my explanation. Then you gave a long
list of things that you claim that I said that I never did say. I don't care to
go through each and every one and show how you are trying to straw man me, but
let me explain how a straw man argument is made. When you can't refute a
position you make up another position and represent it as the position that you
are claiming to refute and then refute that position. An example would be
someone claiming that chocolate ice cream tastes good and then you saying that
the person must be a vanilla fanatic because he said that vanilla ice cream
tasted good. This works when your audience has never heard the original
position made by the person who you are parodying. In their ignorance they
might assume that you are refuting the actual position of the person in
question. When it does not work is when you distort the position right back to
the person who made it and to people who were right there when that person took
that position.
That is exactly what you have just tried to do. You are telling me what I have
said that I know very well I have not said and you are persistently claiming
that I am using a phrase as an epithet right after I have explained that the
phrase has a specific meaning and explained what that meaning is.
On 7/16/2016 5:23 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
You get that feeling because, although I understand your explanation, I don't accept your using the term as
an epithet and because I don't think that because an individual accepts Capitalism as an economic system,
that means that he inevitably accepts the exploitation of workers. What I think is that if Capitalism is
properly regulated, it is no worse for the average person than "state capitalism" which is an
alternative term for what you describe as "socialism". The "socialist"state can be just
as arbitrary and can crush individual rights as can the capitalist state. A socialist state can be
bureaucratic and heartless. Yes, I would like workers to operate the businesses in which they work, and I
would like to get rid of for profit corporations and stock holders and the financialization of the economy.
But I don't want to stop people from owning small businesses or their own farms. I don't want anything that
resembles any of the Communist countries that I've known about, even if they were supposedly moving toward a
withering away of the state. Human beings' need for power and control won't ever let that happen. So whatever
it's called, I want it to be regulated. I want checks and balances, and I want it to be small. Small banks,
small companies, local control. And that doesn't make me a reactionary or anti-human or whatever you mean
when you say bourgois liberal because when you say that, you are being judgmental. You're saying that if I
don't agree with the model of socialism that you espouse, I'm sort of beneath contempt, or, at least, that
if what I want doesn't fit your definition of socialism, then I have no right to use the word, socialist. But
you know, there are people writing about other kinds of socialism like Richard Wolfe. There are people who
don't use the Marxist model as if it were the Gospel, the one and only truth. It's just a concept, Marx
conceptualized it one way. People have other ideas about it. An analogy is Psychoanalysis. Freud gave us a
very useful conceptual framework through which to view human psychology. Some people refuse to deviate from
Freudian theory. Other people have used it as a useful basis for moving on and widening their understanding
of human behavior.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger
Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 4:02 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Sanders endorses Clinton: Laws of
political physics confirmed
Okay, I'll explain it again. It seems like I have explained this many, many
times now. A socialist is one who advocates for the public ownership and
democratic control of the means of production. This is the minimum to be a
socialist. It does not mention any ideas of how this state of affairs might be
achieved. It is just the most basic of definitions of socialism. One who does
not advocate for that state of affairs is not a socialist and if he calls
himself a socialist he is playing the same game that the right-wingers who call
Obama, Clinton or Biden socialists are playing. Among capitalist ideologues
there are varieties too. One can be a capitalist ideologue by advocating
blatantly for capitalism or one may be a capitalist ideologue just by accepting
it and never even considering an alternative. Either way one is either
promoting or accepting the rule of the capitalist class which is the
bourgeoisie. Bourgeois liberals are most often in charge of granting
concessions when the bourgeoisie deem it necessary in order to pacify attempts
by the masses to relieve their own plight. Bourgeois liberals seem to think
they can make capitalism somehow nicer and that will solve all the problems
that capitalism causes. It does not even enter their minds that capitalism is
an exploitative system. It does not enter their minds that we might be better
off without capitalism. It is their acceptance of the rule of the bourgeoisie
that makes them ideologically bourgeois. This describes Bernie Sanders
perfectly. He has never advocated in the slightest bit that the majority of the
people, the workers, should control the means of production and the economy. He
does claim to admire Eugene Debs, but Eugene Debs's politics were radically at
odds with any of the politics that Bernie Sanders has ever promoted.
If Debs was alive now he would be declaring Bernie Sanders an enemy of his
class. Now, at your request I have explained this again. Why is it that I get
the feeling that the next time I mention bourgeois liberals you will repeat the
same thing and say that I am just using the term as an insult or demeaning
phrase as if I have never explained what a bourgeois liberal is before?
On 7/16/2016 3:26 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
That's because, in my view, you are stereotyping everyone who isn't a Marxist. When you
call someone a "bourgeois liberal", it is as if you are using a dirty word to
describe them, as if there is no difference among people who consider themselves to be
Liberals or Progressives, and as if whatever position they take, they have no moral
sstanding. It's demeaning. If you meant something different by your comment, perhaps you
can explain what it was.
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger
Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 2:49 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Sanders endorses Clinton: Laws of
political physics confirmed
I didn't even think he was selling out. He has never been anything but a
bourgeois liberal anyway.
On 7/16/2016 10:49 AM, Charles Crawford wrote:
Hi Alice, Miriam, Roger, and all,
I listened to the Sanders endorsement of Clinton and while the
idealistic side of me was saying he was selling out, the practical side of me
acknowledged he did a really good endorsement of Hilary and most importantly,
she stands the best chance of defeating Trump. I fully know that there are
those who will say that my political calculus is too cynical and perhaps it is,
but I just cannot stomach the idea of Trump and I think Sanders has had a
positive effect on the Democratic Party.
Short and not so sweet, but that is how I see it.
Charlie Crawford.
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice Dampman Humel
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 9:19 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Sanders endorses Clinton: Laws of
political physics confirmed
that’s one thing that never seems to change…all those who have
even a glimmer of hope find themselves bitterly disappointed...
On Jul 13, 2016, at 2:01 PM, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
One of the articles I posted last night said it all. Basically, Sanders
did not follow through on his promise to take the fight to the convention. Had
he not endorsed Clinton, he might have had leverage to get a better deal on the
platform. He might have asked about the uncounted California votes. He might
have made the case to super delegates that he could get more votes than Clinton
in order to keep the Presidency out of Trump's hands. But he caved to pressure.
I know that most probably, had he done that and actually won the presidency,
not much would have changed. But all of those young people who had faith that
they could have an impact, that they can change the system, would not have been
so bitterly disappointed. Only the most motivated and dedicated will keep
fighting for change now.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey ;(Redacted
sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 12:13 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Sanders endorses Clinton: Laws of
political physics confirmed
https://socialistaction.org/2016/07/12/sanders-endorses-clinton-laws
-
o
f-political-physics-confirmed/
Sanders endorses Clinton: Laws of political physics confirmed
/ 13 hours ago
June 2016 Clinton-Bernie
By JEFF MACKLER
— Jeff Mackler is the Socialist Action candidate for U.S. president
$33+ million and one year later, Bernie Sanders’ orchestrated
“political revolution” fell back to earth with a dull but expected and pitiful
thump, as he endorsed Wall Street’s corporate-funded Hillary Clinton with a
resounding “The future will be shaped more on November 8 [Election Day] than by
any event in the world.”
Those who believed that Sanders was never a conscious sheepherder for
the ever-discredited Democrats will now march with him to the beat of the
“lesser evil” Clinton drum, even as she pledges to find common ground with her
Republican colleagues.
Those who are awakening to the inherent horrors of capitalism’s racist,
sexist, warmongering twin corporate duopoly will not be surprised. For them,
the future will be shaped not by those who profit from climate catastrophe and
endless wars against poor and working people abroad and at home, but by the
millions who take their lives into their own hands and struggle on every front
for humanity’s cause and for the socialist future.
Join the vote for Socialist Action in the 2016 campaign!
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July 12, 2016 in Elections, Vote Socialist Action. Tags: Clinton,
Sanders
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