Chuck,
I understand that rush of anger and humiliation when what we thought
was going to be a fun evening, turns out to be a nightmare. Mad? I'd
be furious. But I have always had enough control over my sexual
passions to be able to simply put my pants back on and walk out the
door. I can understand the desire to lecture the deceiver, pointing
out the fact that if I were a person of a violent nature, I might be
wrapping the light cord around their neck. But being so out of
control that I actually struck or injured them? Forget it. In fact,
if I were on a jury, I would consider the act of violence to be far
more serious than the act of deception.
A fellow I worked with found his wife in bed with another man. He
nearly killed them both, he was so enraged. He went to prison for
attempted murder. Boy, I guess he sure taught them a thing or two!
If my wife cheats on me, or if someone deceives me, why would I do
violence to them? Doesn't that seem to be strange thinking?
And by the way, I did come home and found my ex-wife in bed with
another woman. My small children were in the living room watching
cartoons, while the two adults were romping in the bed room. I was
full of anger. But I said, "Why don't you two go somewhere else to do
your messing around?" After that I had the locks changed, piled her
personal stuff in the garage and called my attorney. Even so, I had
to mentally imagine that my wife had died and I invited everyone to
the funeral. I told myself that my two children still had a mother,
but my wife had died. For me, it worked.
Carl Jarvis
On 3/10/16, Charles Krugman <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
the cases that I'm talking about are the instantaneous response to the
unwanted act or the immediate reaction when the person who has received the
sexual advance was originally led to believe that the person making the
advance was of the opposite sex. There was a case here several years ago
prior to the "gay Panic" defense being banned in California was enticed by a
male transvestite who passed as a female. This person regularly dressed this
way and frequented areas where prostitutes hung out for the purpose of
entrapping and deceiving men in to having sex with him. On one ill-fated
occasion for him he entrapped someone and took him to an apartment. When the
parties undressed the person who was entrapped discovered that what he
thought was a female wasn't and subsequently picked up an object and
stabbing this person to death. The police found this victim now perpetrator
running naked on one of the freeways adjacent to the murder scene. The local
LGBT community was divided on this one but there were many who thought it
was terrible that the district attorney allowed this person to plead to
manslaughter and receive a sentence of only a couple of years. This was one
of the cases that resulted in the gay panic defense being banned in
California. Someone thinking about it going out and retrieving a weapon or
coming back with a vendetta wouldn't be covered under this defense.
Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: joe harcz Comcast
Sent: Monday, March 7, 2016 5:28 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: FW: Gay panic
You have many good points here. One that should be considerred is that
unwanted sexual advances are sexual harrassment at best and we know what is
worse. If those advances are made same sex they are no less inappropriate.
That said the rubber meets the road on each individual case.
Andreactions to unwanted advances must be commensorate. If someone grabs my
genitals in a bar, or whatever, man or woman, just out of nowhere I have
the
right to clock the person. It is a matter of self defense.
If a gay man gooses me, (which has happened btw) I have the right to recoil
and maybe even to smack him. But, I don't have the right to go out to my
car, come back with an AK 47 and shoot him with several rounds and then
claim "gay panic" as a defense for my over reaction.
I know I'mbeing hyperbolic here, but I think all get my point.
Bottom line is I see where Chuck is coming from.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Krugman (Redacted sender "ckrugman" for DMARC)"
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 7:19 PM
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: FW: Gay panic
To start with I oppose limiting a question of a defense that should be
left up to a jury to decide when a crime occurs. Secondly I am aware of
instances where a gay person has instigated a crime by deceiving a person
as to their gender and/or sexual orientation making unwanted sexual
advances causing an overreaction to occur. I believe that questions
involving a criminal defense need to be left up to a jury to decide if
they are merited.
Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: Miriam Vieni
Sent: Friday, March 4, 2016 6:42 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: FW: Gay panic
Chuck,
I'm not clear on what it was about the petition that you opposed. Could
you explain further?
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Charles Krugman
(Redacted sender "ckrugman" for DMARC)
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 1:07 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: FW: Gay panic
actually there is another side to this. As a gay male I know that there
are men who actually will deceive other people in how they pose or dress
as a means of concealing their real sexual identity. There are people who
when confronted by this deception will react in such a way that could
result in violence toward the perpetrator of such a ruse. I think that
this type of deception is unconscionable and having been a counselor for
years and working in the legal defense field I know people that would be
shocked or insulted that they would lose control and act accordingly. As a
gay man I opposed the legislation in California that was ultimately passed
for this reason in addition that people that deceive others give a bad
name to the group that they are trying to claim. Now I know that this
opinion doesn’t fit in to the idea that progressives need to tolerant any
aberrant behavior engaged in by a so-called minority class but the bottom
line I am upset more that a personally will hide their sexual identity to
entrap a person in order to engage in sex act rather than a defendant who
reacts to this can’t use any defense possible and let a jury decide so
when I got this petition in my in-box I hastily deleted it without
signing.
From: Bob Hachey <mailto:bhachey@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 6:59 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] FW: Gay panic
Hi all,
Here’s one that shocked me and that’s hard to do these days. Can you
believe that in 49 states, homophobes can use “gay panic” as
self-defense?
Now, That’s American injustice at its best!
Cynically Speaking
Bob Hachey
From: Change.org [mailto:mail@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 7:13 AM
To: bhachey@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Gay panic
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Trending petition
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Robert – There's a new petition taking off on Change.org, and we think you
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Petitioning Utah State House, Utah State Senate, Utah Governor
Ban the Dangerous Panic Defense in Courtrooms
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Hyrum, Utah
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When I first heard of the “panic defense,” I was shocked. A legal defense
that asserts that feeling panicked at an LGBT person’s romantic advances
justifies assault or murder? And it’s legal? It turns out that it is a
permissible defense in 49 out of 50 states, and has been used to fight or
reduce many people’s charges.
I heard about it in the 2008 murder case of 15-year-old Larry King in
California. He had asked Brandon McInerney to be his valentine. McInerney
came to school later that day and shot King two times in the back of the
head. When McInerney went to court for his crime, he used the gay panic
defense. Because of this, McInerney received only a lesser second degree
murder sentence.
The panic defense is anti-LGBT, anti-civil rights, and anti-American.
Please join me in calling on Utah state lawmakers to ban the panic
defense, in hopes that other states follow suit.
And young Larry King was just one of many victims whose murders didn’t get
the justice they deserved because of this grossly prejudicial defense. We
can’t let this go on in a free country. California recently made good on a
promise not to let such a miscarriage of justice happen again. In 2014, it
became the first (and only) state to officially ban the “panic defense” in
court. It’s time for the other 49 states to follow suit. Please call on
Utah state officials to ban the panic defense in Utah courts. We must not
stop fighting this travesty of justice until it is outlawed in all 50
states.
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Sign Aspen’s petition
<http://email.change.org/mpss/c/8gA/3CE/t.1ux/Uc6eGHr1SnycDiGFbOJ2qw/h4/KLcqj6mm2DNwtPZFTP391hZV4uazXsQWaXEFzBjzvfWuf8wL5rwGwkjNR1bvf7M6ECvcgh5uiZVhzxhQP-2FLSvlqVi-2FaQvI5y5yYCNVNNZAHqLSUyQh9fmPkA4JoFNnX5XKDozUDH8zAB2HEeMSOhVll1W9VKd8OuJuAlkfIY-2FX5JP9Tah2ojmzkLKjFCjPIGp6jmjUz25sjA3ZS6hM8iipAjBDmnOgRxfMbU3OfGP6-2FhavglPrc4K6Fv4Gb9OEVdE9yqn32-2BAjXpBOOj4Qv-2FiAqFKdLEm793beREQVd-2FdX0-3D>
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