My original question was, was the person deceiving people, or was the
person trans sexual?
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Charles Krugman
(Redacted sender "ckrugman" for DMARC)
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 10:32 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: FW: Gay panic
the case in question that I referred to did not involve prostitution.
The person in question frequented an area where prostitution occurred but
enticed men in to having sex by deceiving them but not charging for the act.
Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: Miriam Vieni
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 6:23 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: FW: Gay panic
You know, I think that this issue is so complicated and has so many ethical
implications, that it's unwise to make arbitrary statements. The subject of
prostitution, in and of itself, is so complex. But do be really blunt about
it, the person who is going out, looking for sex that he can buy, is
planning to use another human being as an object to satisfy his needs. He is
turning a personal, intimate act into a commodified interchange. To use his
anger and disappointment as a defense for his injuring or killing the other
person who turns out not to be the temporary slave whom he thought he
purchased, seems inappropriate.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Charles Krugman
(Redacted sender "ckrugman" for DMARC)
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 1:25 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: FW: Gay panic
the cases that I'm talking about are the instantaneous response to the
unwanted act or the immediate reaction when the person who has received the
sexual advance was originally led to believe that the person making the
advance was of the opposite sex. There was a case here several years ago
prior to the "gay Panic" defense being banned in California was enticed by a
male transvestite who passed as a female. This person regularly dressed this
way and frequented areas where prostitutes hung out for the purpose of
entrapping and deceiving men in to having sex with him. On one ill-fated
occasion for him he entrapped someone and took him to an apartment. When the
parties undressed the person who was entrapped discovered that what he
thought was a female wasn't and subsequently picked up an object and
stabbing this person to death. The police found this victim now perpetrator
running naked on one of the freeways adjacent to the murder scene. The local
LGBT community was divided on this one but there were many who thought it
was terrible that the district attorney allowed this person to plead to
manslaughter and receive a sentence of only a couple of years. This was one
of the cases that resulted in the gay panic defense being banned in
California. Someone thinking about it going out and retrieving a weapon or
coming back with a vendetta wouldn't be covered under this defense.
Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: joe harcz Comcast
Sent: Monday, March 7, 2016 5:28 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: FW: Gay panic
You have many good points here. One that should be considerred is that
unwanted sexual advances are sexual harrassment at best and we know what is
worse. If those advances are made same sex they are no less inappropriate.
That said the rubber meets the road on each individual case.
Andreactions to unwanted advances must be commensorate. If someone grabs my
genitals in a bar, or whatever, man or woman, just out of nowhere I have the
right to clock the person. It is a matter of self defense.
If a gay man gooses me, (which has happened btw) I have the right to recoil
and maybe even to smack him. But, I don't have the right to go out to my
car, come back with an AK 47 and shoot him with several rounds and then
claim "gay panic" as a defense for my over reaction.
I know I'mbeing hyperbolic here, but I think all get my point.
Bottom line is I see where Chuck is coming from.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Krugman (Redacted sender "ckrugman" for DMARC)"
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 7:19 PM
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: FW: Gay panic
To start with I oppose limiting a question of a defense that should be
left up to a jury to decide when a crime occurs. Secondly I am aware
of instances where a gay person has instigated a crime by deceiving a
person as to their gender and/or sexual orientation making unwanted
sexual advances causing an overreaction to occur. I believe that
questions involving a criminal defense need to be left up to a jury to
decide if they are merited.
Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: Miriam Vieni
Sent: Friday, March 4, 2016 6:42 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: FW: Gay panic
Chuck,
I'm not clear on what it was about the petition that you opposed.
Could you explain further?
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Charles ;
Krugman
(Redacted sender "ckrugman" for DMARC)
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 1:07 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: FW: Gay panic
actually there is another side to this. As a gay male I know that
there are men who actually will deceive other people in how they pose
or dress as a means of concealing their real sexual identity. There
are people who when confronted by this deception will react in such a
way that could result in violence toward the perpetrator of such a
ruse. I think that this type of deception is unconscionable and having
been a counselor for years and working in the legal defense field I
know people that would be shocked or insulted that they would lose
control and act accordingly. As a
gay man I opposed the legislation in California that was ultimately
passed
for this reason in addition that people that deceive others give a bad<http://email.change.org/mpss/c/8gA/3CE/t.1ux/Uc6eGHr1SnycDiGFbOJ2qw/h0/KLcq
name to the group that they are trying to claim. Now I know that this
opinion doesn't fit in to the idea that progressives need to tolerant
any aberrant behavior engaged in by a so-called minority class but the
bottom line I am upset more that a personally will hide their sexual
identity to entrap a person in order to engage in sex act rather than
a defendant who reacts to this can't use any defense possible and let
a jury decide so when I got this petition in my in-box I hastily
deleted it without signing.
From: Bob Hachey <mailto:bhachey@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 6:59 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] FW: Gay panic
Hi all,
Here's one that shocked me and that's hard to do these days. Can you
believe that in 49 states, homophobes can use "gay panic" as self-defense?
Now, That's American injustice at its best!
Cynically Speaking
Bob Hachey
From: Change.org [mailto:mail@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 7:13 AM
To: bhachey@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Gay panic
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Trending petition
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Robert - There's a new petition taking off on Change.org, and we think
you
might be interested in signing it.<http://email.change.org/mpss/c/8gA/3CE/t.1ux/Uc6eGHr1SnycDiGFbOJ2qw/h1/KLcq
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<http://email.change.org/mpss/c/8gA/3CE/t.1ux/Uc6eGHr1SnycDiGFbOJ2qw/h2/KLcq
Petitioning Utah State House, Utah State Senate, Utah Governor
Ban the Dangerous Panic Defense in Courtrooms
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Petition by Aspen Nielsen
Hyrum, Utah
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6,320
Supporters
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Rounded Rectangle: Sign Aspen's petition
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When I first heard of the "panic defense," I was shocked. A legal
defense that asserts that feeling panicked at an LGBT person's
romantic advances justifies assault or murder? And it's legal? It
turns out that it is a permissible defense in 49 out of 50 states, and
has been used to fight or reduce many people's charges.
I heard about it in the 2008 murder case of 15-year-old Larry King in
California. He had asked Brandon McInerney to be his valentine.
McInerney came to school later that day and shot King two times in the
back of the head. When McInerney went to court for his crime, he used
the gay panic defense. Because of this, McInerney received only a
lesser second degree murder sentence.
The panic defense is anti-LGBT, anti-civil rights, and anti-American.
Please join me in calling on Utah state lawmakers to ban the panic
defense, in hopes that other states follow suit.
And young Larry King was just one of many victims whose murders didn't
get
the justice they deserved because of this grossly prejudicial defense.
We can't let this go on in a free country. California recently made
good on a
promise not to let such a miscarriage of justice happen again. In
2014, it
became the first (and only) state to officially ban the "panic
defense" in
court. It's time for the other 49 states to follow suit. Please call<http://email.change.org/mpss/c/8gA/3CE/t.1ux/Uc6eGHr1SnycDiGFbOJ2qw/h4/KLcq
on Utah state officials to ban the panic defense in Utah courts. We
must not stop fighting this travesty of justice until it is outlawed
in all 50 states.
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Sign Aspen's petition
<http://email.change.org/mpss/c/8gA/3CE/t.1ux/Uc6eGHr1SnycDiGFbOJ2qw/h5/KLcq
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Want to change something?
Start a petition
.<http://email.change.org/mpss/c/8gA/3CE/t.1ux/Uc6eGHr1SnycDiGFbOJ2qw/h6/KLcq
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