[argyllcms] Re: ArgyllCMS: shadow details and blue color issues. What I'm doing incorrectly?

  • From: "Xavi" <aruiz@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <argyllcms@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 19:46:23 +0200

Global settings:
Device profile: sRGB IEC619...
By default I have "sRGB virtual device model profile"
WSC profile: for ICC viewing condition
By default I have "WCS profile for sRGB viewing conditions"
Default renderings: Photo
I have 5 different dropdown menus: Default color representation, perceptual,
relative colorimetric, absolute colorimetric and Business graphics. I have
select on all the dropdown menus the option "photographic" except on the 1st
dropdown menu, that the oprion photo doesn't exist. I have selected the
"perceptual" option. It is correct?
I imagine that in my case, that I want to achieve print some patches, that
compared with they source Lab values, have a low deltaE value, this settings
are not very relevant because only affects to how to show the images on the
monitor. But not how to print.
Printer settings:
Profile: manual
Default profile: sRGB IEC619...
By default I have "Automatic"
I have changed all the settings as you have proposed and also the next
setting on PS:
1. While opening the target from ArgyllCMS assign they sRGB IEC619...
2. While printing, select in Photoshop "Photoshop manages the colors".
3. Select relative colorimetric intent.
4. Disable BPC
5. Select the profile for printer sRGB IEC619...

And I printed  the patches.
Before to print, PS offers a print preview with a checkbox that if you check
it, you can see the out of gamma colors .I checked it and some patches were
colored, as beeing out of gamma.
I let the printed patches to dry overnight. The color of the patches is very
different to the rest of test chart pages printed with ArgyllCMS. Normally,
they are dark and very saturated but in this case are more light, less
I attach you a scanned page printed with this alternative method and another
with the normal method.
I have read the patches and I have created the ICM file. I attach you the
ti2, ti3 and the ICM.
I have printed a test image with Ps using the new printer profile (PS
manages colors, printer profile: MP_B02..., Renderint intent: relative
colorimetric, No BPC)
and I'm sorry to inform you, that the colors are very irreal. 
Using soft prof on Ps the colors are correct but on paper are very irreal. I
attach you a JPG that contains a test image printed with the new profile
MP_B02... compared with the old  printer profile MP_B01...
My scanner is not profiled. Then the colors aren't "real" colors, but you
can see aproximately how print a profile and how prints the other.
I have checked many times the process, and I think that I made all as you,
kindly, explained me.
Do you imagine why I obtain this results?
As you imagine, printing correctly as beeing a nightmare for me, and trying
to help me also for you, Nikolay and also for Graeme Gill. Sorry for that.
But sometimes something apparently simply can be more complicated that
I'm not sure of nothing. I suspect that a possibly reason of why the colors
changes is for the ink and/or the paper. I am scanning the patches several
times a day to see how color changes after some minutes, some hours and some
few days. Seems that on the paper user, HP Everyday Photo Paper with Image
Specialist Inks, the color change but I don't know if it will stop. I will
inform about it and about the calculated deltaE of different scannings.
I have 2 Canon printers then I can't compare how different is it with
another brands as Epson or HP, but with Canon turning off the color
management is not easy and clear.
To turn off color management you must to go to Canon printer menu and do: 
tab for Main 
-radio button for color/intensity, set it to manual 
-select button named set. 
-choose tab matching 
-choose color correction none
But exist 2 more hidden options that I haven't found their utility and also
I don't when I must to check it (for example, when printing the patches or
when using the custom printer profile).
The 2 options are  "Disable ICM required from the application software." and
"Disable the color profile setting of the application software"
About the first option, the 539 pages owner's manual of the Canon Pro9000
MKII printer, only says: "If image data is not printed correctly, display
the Print Options dialog box from the Page Setup tab
and change the setting of Disable ICM required from the application
software. This may solve the problem." 
About the second option the owner's manual, don't speak, but reading the bug
fixes of the different driver verssion I have found this: 
"2. The following function has been added to Print Options in the Page Setup
Disable the color profile setting of the application software
When this function is set to ON, the color profile in the application is
disabled, which enables printing using the color profile specified on the
driver side."
I print without ticking any of these 2 options but I have tried a lot of
times to find how I must to print to create correctly a custom profile.
Sometimes I read people that says: 
"Yes, Disable ICM when printing from LR. "

other says: "My assumption is that since LR uses its own color management
system, not Windows ICM, this check box will have no effect on LR printing."
other: "You want to leave ICM turned on in the windows system, because the
ICM will use the color profile you built with your Spyder."
A lot of people with the same doubt. Trying to understand these options, for
me not very well explained, please, what do you think about the use of an
option as "Disable ICM required from the application software." and "Disable
the color profile setting of the application software" when printing the
test chart pages throught ACPU? And when using the ArgyllCMS printer profile
on Photoshop?
Yesterday I printed, with ACPU, 4 test chart pages. One with both options
ticked, another with any option ticket, a third with one ticked and the
other unticked and the last test chart page with the first checkbox unticked
and the second option ticked. That's all the options possible (force brute).
I want to create these 4 new printer profiles and print some patches with
any of these 4 printer profiles with each option possible. A total of 16
combinations= 16 groups of patches, to measure and calculate the deltaE
between the source Lab values (Photoshop) ant what my Colormunki see.
But, please, to compare the Lab source values of Ps and the values that my
Colormunki sees on paper, the better method, or a correct method, is what I
describe here?
For example, for a neutral 50 0 0 [Lab]
.\icclu -fb -ia MP_B01.icm


50.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.572030 0.506043 0.633241 [RGB]


.\icclu -ff -ia MP_B01.icm

0.572030 0.506043 0.633241

0.572030 0.506043 0.633241 [RGB] -> Lut -> 49.909222 0.189755 -0.093007

That's mean that on Photoshop, If I fill a rectangle with the color 50 0 0
[Lab] and I print it using the printer profile named MP_B01.icm and with the
ABSOLUTE COLORIMETRIC rendering intent, my colormunki must to see, using the
same printer/paper/ink/driver/settings a 49.909222 0.189755 -0.093007 [Lab]
It is correct???
If yes, then I can know the deltaE between what my colormunki should see,
theorically a 49.909222 0.189755 -0.093007 [Lab] color and what really the
CM see.
It is correct??? Knowing how to check an ArgyllCMS printer profile is very
important for me because if I know it I can know if the parameters used to
print are correct.
Thank you a lot for your help !!!
Best Regards,


De: argyllcms-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:argyllcms-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
En nombre de Nikolay Pokhilchenko
Enviado el: jueves, 25 de octubre de 2012 6:53
Para: argyllcms@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Asunto: [argyllcms] Re: ArgyllCMS: shadow details and blue color issues.
What I'm doing incorrectly?

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 01:22:10 +0200 "Xavi" wrote:

"May be You poorly washed the head and ink path in the printer while
changing the inks? "

No. I haven't changed the inks. I have two Canon printers. A Pro9000MKII and
a MP540. I have changed the ink to the Pro9000 but on the MP540 I use a ink
from Image Specialists form some years ago. All the tests are did with the
MP540 and with the same ink then I discard any option of ink mixed.


The visual poblem that I see on my prints are a non neutral ramp of grays,
from black to white. I see some grey with magesta cast and other grays with
cyan cast.My test patch uses 64 grays. Then I suppose that it mus be
prectically neutral on all the ramp.

There may be metametrism problem. You should to solve the trouble with
profiling fist. Then You will be able to check the prints visual.

It is possible a error with the color management on my Windows 7 Ultimate or
in the printer driver?

Yes. It can be the case.
If there is some setup for Windows color management, try to set: 

Global settings:
Device profile: sRGB IEC619...
WSC profile: for ICC viewing condition
Default renderings: Photo

Printer settings:
Profile: manual
Default profile: sRGB IEC619...

When You perform this, I hope the OS color management will not change the
data between the Photoshop and the printer.

In Photoshop:

1. While opening the target from ArgyllCMS assign they sRGB IEC619...
2. While printing, select in Photoshop "Photoshop manages the colors".
3. Select relative colorimetric intent.
4. Disable BPC
5. Select the profile for printer sRGB IEC619...

This way You'll be able to use, but "neutralize" the color management
behaviour. The color management will be ON and working, but RGB values will
be untouched, I hope.
I've profiled GDI printers on Vista or 7 such way successfully.

Attachment: MP_B01 vs MP_B02.jpg
Description: JPEG image

Attachment: Patches_sRGB.jpg
Description: JPEG image

Attachment: PatchesNoColorManagement.jpg
Description: JPEG image

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