Rod & Janel... we are using the 65/9 needles (but regular thread because of the colors) and changed to just centerline underlayment. Letters are 1/4" high, but going over a #12 fill pattern behind it. I think that's the worst problem. Did one sewout without the fill and the lettering is perfect-real tight and even (in comparison with the 2 pics you posted-those are 'loose') but the company logo MUST have the black background. Dang it... but to do it on a couple hats, I'm telling them NO fill background-just the outlines and lettering. Can't see doing 13,000 stitches on hats that only cost $2....and I don't think I could hold the design. It is only 1.5" high, 4.5" wide-an 'oval' with the 2 ends coming out square-that's a 20 point outline, black fill-then another 'box' outline on top of it-5/8" high, no oval-10 point line-inside THAT is two lines of type, with ANOTHER edge to edge line, 6 pt. Way too much 'edge to edge' sewing to try and hold the outlines onto a full background fill for a hat...I can see lots of 'gaps' trying to do that one! Roland