I haven't followed all the ins and outs of this discussion, but I'm willing to be part of some group sending strategic e-mails/phonecalls. I think it's good to have a mixture of random individual complaints/comments, and perhaps sometimes a more organised, targeted campaign. I know a fair amount about web development, accessibility and usability and if anyone's setting up some kind of list please put me on it. Catherine > -----Original Message----- > From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf > Of Colin Fowler > Sent: 27 January 2005 11:37 > To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [access-uk] Re: Web access: we could be a force (was: Re: > Sainsbury's) > > > it was the ambiguity of her post. I understand quite well in > which spheres > you both work and the difficulty of dismantling the barriers of > inaccessibility without some contribution and constructive input from the > invisible audience. > > Personally I feel that the previous paid for accreditation scheme of the > 'See it Right' campaign was not as constructive as desired. Perhaps the > DRC's web accessibility campaign will be more useful and look less like a > paid for accolade for web developers to rely on. > > But this apart, I do agree that as users we have the responsibility to > educate and inform, and support your idea to campaign; hopefully > by direct > action, for better and more usability in web development. > > Likewise, as end users, we also have the duty to identify persistent non > compliance of good web accessibility and use the legislation to > make all web > developers look up and pay attention. > > Colin F > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Damon Rose" <damon.rose@xxxxxxxxx> > To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 9:46 AM > Subject: [access-uk] Re: Web access: we could be a force (was: Re: > Sainsbury's) > > > > No Colin I think you misunderstood Leoni. > > > > Like me she works on web development and usability a lot. She talks to > > people about making their sites accessible. They ask for written down > > guidelines. They want resources. But at the end of the day, if they > > don't see visually impaired users in action, it's an entirely abstract > > concept. To them, they have to do all this annoying work. OK > so lots of > > them do it because they agree with the idea of equality but others feel > > they're doing it to stay on the right side of the law. > > > > They may play around with a screenreader even, usually getting > very little > > understanding for obvious reasons, but they don't have human > contact with > > disabled people. The other fallout here is that they don't see the > > benefit of their work nor the passion, distress and frustration. > > > > ...Damon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > On Behalf > > Of Colin Fowler > > Sent: 26 January 2005 16:05 > > To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > Subject: [access-uk] Re: Web access: we could be a force (was: Re: > > Sainsbury's) > > > > > > so? tell us something we don't already know. This is the > charity model of > > slowly slowly, never never! > > > > Colin F > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Léonie Watson" <lw@xxxxxxxxxxx> > > To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 3:18 PM > > Subject: [access-uk] Re: Web access: we could be a force (was: Re: > > Sainsbury's) > > > > > >> Damon, > >> > >> It's very true that we are often regarded as an abstract user > >> group. > >> Companies will be told that they need to consider our needs, > but there is > >> no bridge for the divide between theoretical knowledge and actually > >> having > >> contact with a representative of that group. > >> > >> Tink. > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Damon Rose" <damon.rose@xxxxxxxxx> > >> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 2:16 PM > >> Subject: [access-uk] Web access: we could be a force (was: Re: > >> Sainsbury's) > >> > >> > >>> Am not talking about Sainsburys here, just musing to myself. > >>> > >>> Ya know something listers. We could be so much more proactive as a > >>> group > >>> when trying to push for web accessibility on those stubborn sites that > >>> won't address our emails or attempt change. WE've got some amazing > >>> communities on the blind techie lists in this country, this is one of > >>> them, and collectively we could be quite a big force. For instance, > >>> targeted email campaigns. Targeted ringing of telephones in their > >>> office, etc. > >>> > >>> Part of the issue is that they don't realise we're here in numbers > >>> and > >>> want to use their services. They don't see us as a market > ... And they > >>> don't see us as any kind of collective force or threat either. > >>> > >>> I wonder who they think these abstract blind screenreader and screen > >>> enlargement users are that they hear so much about? > >>> > >>> And maybe they'd think about accessibility that bit more if the > >>> consequences were that their email boxes got flooded on particular > >>> target > >>> days or their phones all started ringing every 5 minutes. > >>> > >>> When necessary, we should be a streamlined task force hitting on > >>> these > >>> purveyors of inaccessibility. > >>> > >>> Anyone else got any thoughts on this? > >>> > >>> ...Damon > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On > >>> Behalf > >>> Of kevin and emma > >>> Sent: 26 January 2005 13:08 > >>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Sainsbury's > >>> > >>> > >>> i emailed sainsbury's at the time, but got no joy, they replied but > >>> didn't know what was wrong. this happened on different computers, on > >>> different days, with different items! believe me, when you > spend an hour > >>> and a half filling your trolley and then it all suddenly disappears!! > >>> .... kevin - co-owner/moderator of the blind gamers discussion list. > >>> email/msn: kream@xxxxxxxxxxxx > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Léonie Watson" <lw@xxxxxxxxxxx> > >>> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 12:13 PM > >>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Sainsbury's > >>> > >>> > >>>> Kevin, > >>>> > >>>> You too? That happens to me, but I'd just assumed it was my > >>>> scatterbrain, forgetting what I'd put in, when I returned from the > >>>> usual interuptions to getting anything done. *Smile. > >>>> > >>>> Tink. > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: "kevin and emma" <kream@xxxxxxxxxxxx> > >>>> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:33 AM > >>>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Sainsbury's > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > hmm, might have to take another look at it. last time i used it, > >>> whenever > >>>> > i > >>>> > went to look in my trolley, or to check out, 75% of the items i'd > >>>> > put in the trolley disappeared!! kevin - co-owner/moderator of the > >>>> > blind gamers discussion list. > >>>> > email/msn: kream@xxxxxxxxxxxx > >>>> > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> > From: "SHARON BOWELL" <sharon.bowell1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >>>> > To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >>>> > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:11 AM > >>>> > Subject: [access-uk] Re: Sainsbury's > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > Hi Tink, > >>>> > > >>>> > Yes it did change very recently. I started my shop on Sunday, and > >>>> > went to finish off yesterday and it was like that. It really > >>>> > confused me for a minute, as I just could not see how to add to > >>>> > trolley. > >>>> > > >>>> > I'll mention to Sainsbury's about changing the text though. > >>>> > > >>>> > Thanks. > >>>> > > >>>> > Sharon > >>>> > > >>>> > -----Original Message----- > >>>> > From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On > >>>> > Behalf Of Léonie Watson > >>>> > Sent: 26 January 2005 09:32 > >>>> > To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>>> > Subject: [access-uk] Re: Sainsbury's > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > Sharon, > >>>> > > >>>> > I guess they must have changed this very recently, as I don't > >>>> > recall it being like this last week when I did my shopping. > >>>> > > >>>> > It is something of an odd way of doing things, but thinking > >>>> > about it it does work quite well when you get used to it. > >>>> > > >>>> > Previously, I'd hit the "Add To Cart" link each time I wanted > >>>> > to add an item to the trolley. So if I wanted to add 2 lemons, I'd > >>>> > hit the link twice. I found this very straightforward, as the > >>>> > focus on the page didn't change. > >>>> > Conversely, I almost never used to enter forms mode, to enter the > >>>> > number > >>>> > of > >>>> > items in in one go, because I found doing it like that > lost focus on > >>>> > the > >>>> > > >>>> > page and I'd have to back track to the relevant bit. > >>>> > > >>>> > The one thing that was annoying was if I'd added one too many > >>>> > by accident, or belatedly changed my mind about buying something. > >>>> > It meant having to go to the trolley and remove it, which was a > >>>> > bit of a pain. I suppose this way you can just hit the link to > >>>> > subtract an item on the spot. > >>>> > > >>>> > It could be worth suggesting to Sainsburys that they alter the > >>>> > link text slightly. Instead of having "Increase the quantity > >>>> > of..." they could have "Increase the quantity of... in your > >>>> > trolley". This would make the purpose > >>>> > of the link much clearer. > >>>> > > >>>> > On the whole, Sainsbury's are usually receptive to feedback > >>>> > like this, so it could be worth a shot. > >>>> > > >>>> > Cheers, > >>>> > Tink. > >>>> > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> > From: "SHARON BOWELL" <sharon.bowell1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >>>> > To: "Access UK" <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >>>> > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 9:02 AM > >>>> > Subject: [access-uk] Sainsbury's > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> >> Hi, > >>>> >> > >>>> >> I sent this yesterday, but did not see it on the list. If it did > >>>> >> appear, please accept my apologies. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Has anyone been on the Sainsbury's site recently. They have done > >>>> >> a major change, and it seems fine apart from adding products to > >>>> >> the trolley. This is not very clear any more, in fact I thought > >>>> >> they had omitted it altogether. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> There now seems to be a decrease and increase quantity button, > >>>> >> and that is it. I contacted the site about this and they said > >>>> >> that is how > >>>> > > >>>> >> it is supposed to be. I found the only way to add items to my > >>>> >> trolley > >>>> > > >>>> >> was to click on the increase quantity. I expected this to > >>>> >> increase the quantity in the quantity box, not add to ones > >>>> >> trolley. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> If anyone has a few minutes perhaps you may like to have a look. > >>>> >> sainsburystoyou.com. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Thanks. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Sharon > >>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>> > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- > >>>> > ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] > >>>> > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: > >>>> > ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>>> > ** and in the Subject line type > >>>> > ** unsubscribe > >>>> > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the > >>>> > ** immediately-following link:- > >>>> > ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] > >>>> > ** or send a message, to > >>>> > ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- > >>>> > ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] > >>>> > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: > >>>> > ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>>> > ** and in the Subject line type > >>>> > ** unsubscribe > >>>> > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the > >>>> > ** immediately-following link:- > >>>> > ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] > >>>> > ** or send a message, to > >>>> > ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- > >>>> > ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] > >>>> > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: > >>>> > ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>>> > ** and in the Subject line type > >>>> > ** unsubscribe > >>>> > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the > >>>> > ** immediately-following link:- > >>>> > ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] > >>>> > ** or send a message, to > >>>> > ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq > >>>> > >>>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- > >>>> ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] > >>>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: > >>>> ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>>> ** and in the Subject line type > >>>> ** unsubscribe > >>>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the > >>>> ** immediately-following link:- > >>>> ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] > >>>> ** or send a message, to > >>>> ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- > >>> ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] > >>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: > >>> ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>> ** and in the Subject line type > >>> ** unsubscribe > >>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the > >>> ** immediately-following link:- > >>> ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] > >>> ** or send a message, to > >>> ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq > >>> > >>> > >>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/ > >>> > >>> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain > >>> personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically > >>> stated. 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