[Wittrs] Is Homeostasis the Answer? (Re: Variations in the Idea of Consciousness)
- From: "SWM" <SWMirsky@xxxxxxx>
- To: wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 00:58:37 -0000
--- In Wittrs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "iro3isdx" <xznwrjnk-evca@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In Wittrs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "SWM" <SWMirsky@> wrote:
<snip>
>
> > You are arguing that efforts like these are foredoomed because
> > algorithmically driven processes lack the capacity to adapt.
>
> To be clear, I am not really arguing.
I was using "argue" in the rhetorical sense, in the sense in which any
controversial claim made in the course of a dispute has an argumentative role.
I certainly didn't mean to suggest you were making any kind of formal argument
or that you were aiming to persuade!
>I am comparing my approach with
> that of AI, because a comparison helps to illustrate important points.
>
> To argue is to attempt to persuade, and I am not trying to persuade
> you. I'm just explaining my ideas as best I can.
>
>
> > If living systems are algorithmic at a genomic level too then even
> > their adaptational capacity is causally grounded.
>
> I do not consider them to be algorithmic at the genomic level.
>
Then we have a disagreement on what "algorithmic" means which I suppose isn't
surprising. Note that I mean it in the generic sense, in which computer
programs in programming or machine language are just one sort of algorithm.
Another kind would be a step-by-step procedure written down for someone to
follow in accomplishing some task. Still another, on this view, is the set of
"blueprints" which a living organism follows as it develops the system that it
is. On such a view the coding in our genomes and the coding in a computer's
inputted code are not different in terms of the role they play even if they are
carried in different material, consist of different kinds of steps, etc.
>
> > So what is the feature that produces what we recognize as
> > consciousness?
>
> I guess that depends on what is meant by "consciousness."
>
> Regards,
> Neil
In the end, that's what this is all about. What is consciousness, what should
we think of when we use the term, what do we actually think of and how does
what we think of accord with the way things really are?
Anyway, you initially said that the missing piece, the reason AI can't
conceivably succeed in producing conscious intelligence, was that it lacked
homeostasis. I have been interested in THAT thesis for some time. As far as I
can see, it seems to boil down to a claim that there is something about
biological entities that non-biological entities just cannot have, i.e.,
homeostasis. What I have been hoping is that you would identify whatever the
specific thing is which homeostasis leads to/makes possible/produces, etc.,
which finally gives us instances of consciousness.
You've suggested a number of things in the course of our exchanges, the most
recent being adaptiveness or adaptation, but you've recently said that none of
the suggested intermediate steps (pragmatics, perception, adapatation) form a
direct 'line' from homeostasis to consciousness. I am still willing to consider
that homeostasis brings something to the table that computers don't have but as
of now I don't believe you've taken a stand that any of these are the "missing
link". Is there something else that is then? In other words, what is the
mechanism by which homeostasis becomes/produces consciousness?
For the record, and just to reiterate, what I mean by "consciousness" is that
array of features we discover in our own subjective experience (our mental
life) that we associate with being conscious, having a mind. Included among
these are:
awareness
understanding
remembering
thinking
feeling
perceiving
intentionality (aboutness)
intentionality (having purposes)
I don't suggest that this list is necessarily exhaustive or that we might not
be able to say that some of these are really different aspects of others of
these (or maybe that all are really aspects of one thing). I just want to note
that when we think of consciousness, of having minds, these are the features we
usually associate with what it means to be conscious, to have a mind. In
ourselves we can discover these features by a little introspection (paying
attention to what's going on when we think about things). In others, we
typically recognize these features by the behaviors manifested (including self
reports).
If you mean something different by "consciousness" I'd be interested to
consider it. But if the issue preventing you from suggesting what the critical
mechanism between homeostasis and consciousness is remains some uncertainty
about what is meant by "consciousness", this, at least, is what I mean.
Thanks.
SWM
=========================================
Need Something? Check here: http://ludwig.squarespace.com/wittrslinks/
Other related posts:
