[Wittrs] Re: Constitution vs Causation
- From: "gabuddabout" <gabuddabout@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 22:24:27 -0000
I can't resist:
Stuart writes:
"Dennett says brains doing certain kinds of things are, in essence, what we
mean by "minds". Searle says brains doing certain kinds of things cause what we
mean by "minds"."
Too sloppy. You're formulation of Dennett's claim is consistent with Searle,
though. It is probably false, also, given your liberal use of "we."
It's as if you're hidebound habits of mind have something against Searle.
That's a matter for psychology, semantics being another subject, and
epistemology a third.
Did Searle poop on your porch or something? Why do you get him so wrong all
the time? Is it just fun? Want more tea?
Cheers,
Budd
--- In WittrsAMR@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "SWM" <wittrsamr@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Wittrs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Joseph Polanik <jPolanik@> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> SWM:
>
> > > The fact that he (Dennett) doesn't use "cause" is irrelevant to the
> > >point at issue. It's a matter of word choice, nothing more. Few people
> > >speak in the exact same way. The issue is to find what they have in
> > >mind, not try to apply some external and arbitrary meaning, say
> > >Aristotle's, as a kind of absolute.
> >
>
> > the issue does not concern using Aristotle as an external absolute. the
> > issue concerns the internal consistency of your claims.
> >
> > just a few days ago, in reply to Budd (see above) you noted that the
> > verb to be [are] could denote an identity or a predicate relation; but,
> > that it "certainly doesn't denote a causal relation". now, in your last
> > post in this thread, you claim that the verb to be [is] does denote a
> > causal relation.
> >
>
> Dennett says brains doing certain kinds of things are, in essence, what we
> mean by "minds". Searle says brains doing certain kinds of things cause what
> we mean by "minds". But Searle's use of "cause" is also seen in his claim
> about the causes of water's features, e.g., wetness and liquidity. So Searle
> equates a constitutive/identity
> relation with a causal claim which is perfectly consistent with how we speak
> (use the word "cause") in this context.
>
> Does Searle mean Aristotle's notion of efficient cause by that usage?
> Manifestly not? Does he mean the idea of logical identity (that something is
> necessarily the same as itself)? Also no because the feature of wetness in
> water is only encountered at our level of operation whereas no molecule of
> water is wet nor would we find an aggregate of water molecules to be wet IF
> WE COULD ENCOUNTER THEM ON THE ATOMIC LEVEL. Why not? Because wetness is a
> feature found on THIS "macro" (Searle's term) level of operation.
>
> Searle's use of "cause" captures this. Dennett eschews that usage because he
> apparently thinks it's clearer and less confusing to speak about brains (and
> the things they do) in this context rather than treat minds as seperate
> entities from brains. And, indeed, we see lots of confusion in Searle
> including his own tendency to fall into contradiction when he slips from
> accounts of minds and computers to accounts of minds and brains.
>
> Against that one can say Dennett SEEMS to be jettisoning the idea of mind
> entirely as you do, Joe. But I would say that is just a misunderstanding of
> Dennett since he nowhere demands we give up speaking about minds or
> consciousness (as the behaviorists do, of minds at least, and Minsky wants to
> do re: consciouness). His focus is rather at finding ways that explain the
> occurrence of minds (and all we associate with them) in terms of the
> physicalist account of brains and what they do. Against this, we have Searle
> insisting on a separate account while telling us that yes, brains still do
> it!
>
> There is no contradiction in suggesting that Dennett's account is one that
> aims to describe mind as a manifestation of certain physical phenomena (as
> Searle's account of wetness treats that feature as a manifestation of certain
> physical phenomena) while noting that he eschews Searle's use of "cause"
> which, while consistent with ordinary language, tends to add to the confusion
> because of the difficulty many have keeping the different ideas of causation
> separate in the discourse.
>
> > >>hence, Dennett is saying something very different from what Searle
> > >>says ('the mind is caused by the brain' --- Axiom 4 put in the passive
> > >>voice).
> >
> > >>is Dennett using the is of identity? possibly. there is a school of
> > >>thought known as the mind-brain identity theory, MBI, which says just
> > >>that.
> >
> > >>is Dennett using the is of constitution? possibly.
> >
> > >>is Dennett using the is of causation? no. there is no is of causation.
> >
> > >I should have followed my instinct and ignored this one!
> >
>
> > do you have any instinct which tells you that, if the verb to be
> > "certainly doesn't denote a causal relation" when Searle uses it; then,
> > it also "certainly doesn't denote a causal relation" when Dennett uses
> > it?
> >
> > Joe
> >
>
> See above. (You have this fixation, Joe, on locking terms into set
> definitions -- apparently part of what you see as the logical game -- when
> that isn't how language works. Definitions are the result of a process of
> observing and reporting on actual usages by actual language users and usages
> vary, they have ranges of application, they reflect nuances, etc. "Is" means
> lots of things as does "cause" as does "constitutes", etc. The point is to
> unpack the meanings in the given contexts rather than trying to shoehorn
> others' claims into certain pre-existing categories that some of us decide
> are the only relevant ones. This is an important Wittgensteinian insight
> which is one of the most significant things we can take away from his later
> period work.)
>
> SWM
>
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