Since you bring up the subject of international patent law, I can tell you what was our understanding at the time that I was CEO of RTO. The deal was that you could file a provisional patent in the U.S.A. This locked in your effective date in the USA and all countries that participated in the multi-lateral patent agreements at the time. You then had a year to file your real patent. It took two more years for it to get granted, with an effective date of the filing of the provisional patent. If my memory serves me correctly the provisional date was sometime in early 2000, which was three years before AppSense shipped Optimizer. So, it is pretty unlikely that AppSense filed earlier in the UK since they did not know about the existence of such technology until they saw the RTO product. Note that it is possible that our understanding was incorrect, and that the laws have changed since then. On the question of why AppSense is sold more in the UK than in the US, it is pretty simple. AppSense is an outgrowth of a UK Citrix VAR and they have their roots in the UK. They really never quite figured out that the US market is different than the UK market in terms of how it works. They got some traction early on, and then when Citrix chose RTO for memory optimization and Aurema for CPU optimization AppSense took a big hit in the USA and pretty much folded their US operations. In my opinion they have done a nice job of reinventing themselves around lock down since then. Cheers, Bernd Harzog VP Business Development ProactiveWatch www.proactivewatch.com bharzog@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 770-475-4249 -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Malcolm Bruton Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 4:43 PM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: TSCALE or Appsense I guess another angle of this is if Appsense did invent it first in another county (ie the UK) and has the patent for it in that country what's happens then. Not a patent law expert but seems a bit crappy....Maybe that is why Appsense seems to be sold more in UK than anything else. Be interesting to see if/when patents were filed in what country and by whom.... Malcolm -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Adam.Baum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: 08 January 2007 18:09 To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: TSCALE or Appsense I am not sure I agree with you on the legal stuff Bernd. Remember eBay lost a patent lawsuit where the plaintiff asked for an injuction over patent usage. Upon review, the Supreme Court basically said that the lower courts should look at other factors before going with an injunction. In light of this, all that would probably happen is that Appsense (and others) would probably pay to license the technology. adam "Bernd Harzog" <berndh@mindsprin g.com> To Sent by: <thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> thin-bounce@freel cc ists.org Subject [THIN] Re: TSCALE or Appsense 01/07/2007 09:56 AM Please respond to thin@xxxxxxxxxxxx g Hi Angela, Some up front disclosure before I offer my opinion. I used to be the CEO of RTO Software, and personally did the deal to OEM the memory management features of TScale to Citrix, which are now the memory optimization features of CPS 4. So, before you buy either product, enable this feature on one of your servers and see what it does. Another word of caution. RTO holds the patent for dynamic DLL rebasing (the technical term for moving the code pages of the DLL's that comprise an application around so that they can be shared instead of having two copies of the code pages for each user). Since RTO has licensed this technology and the patent to Citrix, Citrix is now a holder of the patent as well. Appsense are remarketing DLL rebasing in violation of this patent. All RTO or Citrix have to do is file suit, and they will get an injunction that forces AppSense to stop shipping Optimizer in the States (countries other than the USA are a different story). So, I would suggest that you not buy AppSense for the DLL remapping since you can get that legally for free as a part of CPS 4.0. If you want to buy AppSense for the other memory management features that Rick Mack alluded to, those are not covered by the patent and you are safe. Cheers, Bernd Harzog VP Business Development ProactiveWatch www.proactivewatch.com bharzog@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 770-475-4249 -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Angela Smith Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 4:43 PM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] TSCALE or Appsense Hi Im tossing up between buying either TScale or Appsense and was wondering what the majority of people are using and what their experiences have been. Ive heard good things about both products. My main issue is that I need to tune memory / swap usage and both products supposedly do this. Thanks _________________________________________________________________ Join the millions of Australians using Live Search. 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