Andy, I witnessed this for the first time last night at the south end of the Knowsley expressway. If anyone from KBC is listening, I'm sure they will confirm that red amber and green are all LEDs at this junction. I deliberately looked for, and saw, the red amber and green on together for about 1/4 of a second - after reading the current discussion emails - and I don't believe that this was caused by 'persistence of vision' but an actual overlap. If that is the case, is there a problem? I suppose if Michael Schumacher were approaching at 200mph in his Ferrari, the kind of split second decision he has to make may just be significant but then, what would he assume for that 1/4 second? Hesitation would creep in until the red and amber extinguished and he would then continue through the green. For the rest of us mere mortals, I don't believe that this could make a blind bit of difference, except in court. Here, Mr. Smarmy Clever-Cloggs QC, could possibly introduce some doubt with a jury. Is it possible that an average driver would even notice? They seem not to notice a 3 second amber these days. The point is, in this case, the signals are changing to green anyway and green only means go if... I hope this does not sound too sarcastic or patronising. As always, my huge irritation is with barristers and solicitors, to whom, any ambiguity - however irrelevant - is an excuse to remove some measure of responsibility from road users but I really can't see this as being such a problem. I'm still very keen to try these signals - only from a supplier of reliable equipment of course. Regards Peter Peter Jones Project Leader - Traffic Control Systems Phone: +44 (0) 151 934 4254 Fax: +44 (0) 151 922 4514 Mobile: 07788 100 584 Peter.Jones (AT) technical.sefton.gov.uk Sefton MBC - UTC 7th Floor Balliol House Balliol Road Bootle L20 3NJ ----------------------------------------------------------- A message from the TCUG mailing list. For information about the list visit //www.freelists.org/webpage/tcug