[SI-LIST] Re: Single ended Noise OR Differential Noise
- From: Sanjeev Gupta <skgupta.sanjeev@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2014 10:51:42 +0530
is it possible to extract Vss and Vcc s-parameter respect to ideal
reference? I doubt, any tool can do this kind of s-parameter extraction.
if such s-parameter extraction is not possible. do you suggest to use RLC
models of VCC and VSS based on quasi-static extraction (using Q3D) for SSN
problem solution.
Thanks
On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 9:47 PM, Iliya Zamek <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
> Hi Naresh,
> Steve described in details many reasons why receiver might see a noise
> when you applied in-phase noise to Vss and Vcc. It is also important to
> know some more details about your experiments to make a conclusion. Whether
> you were using oscilloscope, or receiver to measure output jitter and
> noise, and how you applied noise to Vss and Vcc. In addition to Steve
> observation, different "modulation sensitivity" of Vss and Vcc, the
> pre-driver to the jitter contribution, and just simple conversion of
> waveform' shift to the jitter, - all might contribute to the output jitter
> and noise. I agree with you that I/O delay respect to the Vss "disturbance"
> also one of the reason of remaining noise.
> I also agree with you that it is good to extract both Vss and Vcc respect
> to ideal reference, which is not so easy to simulate. However, if you can,
> there is even more important reason to do so. If you have other signals
> switching along with you measured, these others will contribute through
> common Vss to the Vss noise. So, all depends on details how you applied
> noise and did measurements.
> Thank you.Iliya
> On Tuesday, October 7, 2014 11:50 PM, Naresh Dhamija <
> naresh.dhamija@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Iliya,
>
>
> I understand that different blocks inside IO will convert the in phase
> noise to differential noise and will cause jitter within the IO, but at the
> output of IO pad w.r.t noise vss, I see some noise, I guess it is because
> of finite delay within the output stage of IO . Is this correct?
>
>
>
> If it is so, then my follow up question is:
>
> In the complete system simulation, when we plug package and board
> s-parameter models, it is good to have both vddio and vss extracted w.r.t
> ideal ground rather than only vddio extracted which will only have
> differential noise of vddio with its local vss where common noise of vddio
> and vss is missed out.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Naresh
>
>
>
> *From:* Iliya Zamek [mailto:i_zamek@xxxxxxxxx]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 08, 2014 12:38 AM
> *To:* naresh.dhamija@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> *Subject:* Re: [SI-LIST] Single ended Noise OR Differential Noise
>
>
>
> Hi Naresh,
>
>
>
> Your observation is correct. The impact of PDN noise on on-chip signals
> timing and logic levels noise is different. The impact on I/O Jitter is
> more complex.
>
> The impact on logic levels' noise does not depend on noise frequency and
> I/O signal frequency interrelationship, but impact on I/O' Jitter does. You
> might want to see the results of research of impact noise on Jitter in a
> paper (and references) by Google: "On-chip Jitter and system Power
> Integrity", I. Zamek, Designcon 2012
>
>
>
> Also, there are two effects to consider at I/O Jitter analysis: impact on
> Pre-Driver and impact on output Buffer. Impact on Pre-Driver contribute
> mainly on Jitter, the impact on Buffer contributes on both, Jitter and
> Logic levels' noise. You might see the research and experiments on I/O
> jitter in reference #16:
>
> Zhe Li, Iliya Zamek, Peter Boyle, âFPGA IO Timing Variations with SSO
> Noise,â DesignCon 2008
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> Iliya Zamek
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, October 7, 2014 6:10 AM, Naresh Dhamija <
> naresh.dhamija@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi folks,
>
> I am doing power noise analysis on a system that uses SSTL IO buffers. I
> am seeing the ripple on the IO output signal - such that during hi state
> IO output signal follows the noise whatever is on the vddio and during low
> state, IO output signal follows the noise on the vss. Observing this
> phenomenon, I purposely forced IN PHASE single ended noise to both vdddio
> and vss of almost the same frequency as of data rate but uncorrelated with
> data rate. Since noise forced to vddio and vss are IN PHASE so
> Differential Noise measured between vddio and vss at each instant shows
> zero noise. But still I see jitter on the edges because of finite rise and
> fall times, the initial low level and final high level for a transition
> from low to hi are not always same. Does this mean that along with
> differential noise, single ended noise on power and ground also cause
> jitter to IO driver.
>
> Regards
> Naresh
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Thanks
Sanjeev
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