[SI-LIST] Re: AC Coupled Signals
- From: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: signalintegrity@xxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:24:38 -0700
Stephen, OK so when you say "lossy" or "nonlinear" you mean=20
discontinuous. Discontinuities aggravate resonances based on specific=20
structure material and geometries, in other words the distance on a=20
centimeter or millimeter scale between discontinuities. We have=20
essentially the same opportunities for channel discontinuities at and in =
the vicinity of the transmitter as the receiver. So I still do not see=20
a defensible basis for the offered position: that placing a capacitor at =
one end of the line versus the other changes the end to end loss. What=20
matters is if wherever I place one discontinuity that it sets up a sharp =
resonance with another discontinuity. That can happen equally well at=20
either end of the line.
If one looks at a channel with only a TDR I might understand the=20
erroneous perception that placing a discontinuity down the line is=20
better than up front. But that is an illusion. TDR resolution falls=20
with interconnect distance. This ia a result of the inherent loss of=20
the interconnect that shelves bandwidth and hence resolution versus=20
distance for the instrument. This is one of the big limitations of a=20
TDR for channel evaluation. A through measurement with a TDT or VNA=20
does not suffer that limitation, give true measure of S21 and so report=20
the real channel performance. Eric Bogatin spends some time on the=20
issue of bandwidth versus interconnect length in his book.
Regards,
Steve.
Stephen Zinck wrote:
> Scott,
> We may have some nomenclature issues here...=20
>
> When I say "lossy interface to the capacitor" I mean with impedance dis=
continuities. So I think we are on a similar page given your statement:
>
> "The only time position matters is in the face of discontinuities."
>
> Again, most often, my role is to simulate the customers system at the 1=
1th hour. I don't recommend this, I just work within the customer's needs=
/requirements. I make real world recommendations from simulation results =
for designs where these discontinuities you mention are a fact of life. G=
ranted my customers are not doing 5+ Gbit/s designs (right now ;-).
>
> Above these data-rates, all you mention, capacitor transition (pad, via=
s, etc) are of the utmost importance. And I would absolutely agree that t=
he more perfect you make these transitions, the less it matters where the=
y are placed...
>
> So I do believe AC coupling capacitor position does matter, as you stat=
e, for the bulk of the designs occurring these days where component footp=
rint and via optimization, etc. is NOT occurring...
>
> Steve
>
> Stephen P. Zinck
> Interconnect Engineering Inc.
> P.O. Box 577
> South Berwick, ME 03908
> Phone - (207) 384-8280
> Email - szinck@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Web - www.interconnectengineering.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: Scott McMorrow=20
> To: Stephen Zinck=20
> Cc: jory_mckinley@xxxxxxxxx ; leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; npatel@micro=
n.com ; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: AC Coupled Signals
>
>
> Steven,
>
> I would not agree with your following statements.
>
> "I agree in theory with all you state. Assuming a lossless interface =
to the capacitor, it shouldn't matter where you place it, given a purely =
linear system. But the real world is lossy, even when one makes great 3D =
solved structures. Manufacturing and other tolerances tend to take the tr=
ek towards perfection to task."
>
> "Would either of you agree that AC coupling capacitor location may ma=
tter with a lossy interface to the capacitor?"
>
>
> Insertion loss in a flat impedance linear lossy system will be indepe=
ndent of capacitor location. Run the math and see. The only time positi=
on matters is in the face of discontinuities. In fact, given a low loss=
interconnect with discontinuities and a high loss interconnect with disc=
ontinuities, the low loss system, with it's higher Q, will often have wor=
se behavior.
>
> An improperly designed 0402 capacitor transition for a 50 ohm line ca=
n easily exhibit a discontinuity of 35 ohms for 50 ps. If attached to po=
orly designed via transitions, the discontinuity will be even worse. Whe=
n this is coupled closely to a high capacitance receiver input, a high ca=
pacitance transmitter output, a low impedance via stub discontinuity, or =
a low impedance connector discontinuity, it can form a 1/2 wave resonant =
circuit. This is most likely the problem you are seeing. =20
>
> If the interconnect has essentially flat impedance, position does not=
matter. If the capacitor transition is properly designed, position does=
not matter. All of the data we have on this is proprietary at this time=
=2E Our understanding of the physics has been verified by full wave mode=
ling, simulation and measurement.
>
>
>
> regards,
>
> Scott
>
>
>
> Scott McMorrow
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> 121 North River Drive
> Narragansett, RI 02882
> (401) 284-1827 Business
> (401) 284-1840 Fax
>
> http://www.teraspeed.com
>
> Teraspeed=AE is the registered service mark of
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>
>
> Stephen Zinck wrote:=20
> Hi Scott and Steve,
>
> To answer both of your questions, it is the resulting Hspice (with =
S-parameters) differential eye patterns, as viewed at the receiver die, t=
hat were used to make a comparison of source versus destination AC coupli=
ng capacitor locations. The system was excited with a string of ones, fol=
lowed by a single zero, followed by a string of ones.=20
>
> I have not specifically designed a test board that varies the AC co=
upling capacitor location along a trace.
>
> I understand the "shades of gray" here and agree that one can't mak=
e a "rule of thumb" generalization in our line of work these days.=20
>
> I agree in theory with all you state. Assuming a lossless interface=
to the capacitor, it shouldn't matter where you place it, given a purely=
linear system. But the real world is lossy, even when one makes great 3D=
solved structures. Manufacturing and other tolerances tend to take the t=
rek towards perfection to task.=20
>
> Do either of you have real world measured results, that you could s=
hare, that show no marked difference in received signal characteristics w=
hen the AC coupling capacitor position is varied through a 30 inch backpl=
ane system (or similar)?
>
> I believe my experience with capacitor location may prove true if t=
he capacitor interface is lossy (which is the case). A lot of my customer=
s are just looking for quick ways to maximize performance using standard =
component packages and standard layout practices (in the end, I don't lik=
e to give anything away that is low lying fruit). Most of the time I am d=
oing my analysis after the board is in layout, where I have limited abili=
ty to change the design (unless it is really broken). In a perfect world,=
where I am involved early, the package optimization and layout structure=
s can be optimized as you state, but only if the margins warrant it (syst=
em performance issues are expected after initial "what-if" simulations ha=
ve occurred). The right tool for the right job rules the day...
>
> Would either of you agree that AC coupling capacitor location may m=
atter with a lossy interface to the capacitor?
>
> All the best,
> Steve
>
> Stephen P. Zinck
> Interconnect Engineering Inc.
> P.O. Box 577
> South Berwick, ME 03908
> Phone - (207) 384-8280
> Email - szinck@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Web - www.interconnectengineering.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: Scott McMorrow=20
> To: Stephen Zinck=20
> Cc: jory_mckinley@xxxxxxxxx ; leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; npatel@m=
icron.com ; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: AC Coupled Signals
>
>
> Stephen
>
> Define "better" and then relate your simulations and conclusions =
to linear system theory and measurements. =20
>
> I contend that the only difference an AC coupling capacitor can p=
ossibly have due to position in a linear interconnect is a result of impe=
dance mismatch. I contend that the capacitor will form a 1/2 wave resona=
nt circuit with other interconnect discontinuities (connectors, vias stub=
s, packages, Tx die, Rx die ... etc) and that this interaction is system,=
chip, connector and package design dependent. I contend that it is this=
1/2 resonance that can cause differences that can be measured, but that =
there is no "rule of thumb", since the position and magnitude of disconti=
nuities are different in every system. In some systems the receiver cons=
titutes a larger discontinuity than the transmitter. In other systems th=
is is reversed. In yet other systems, connectors and vias represent larg=
er discontinuites than do either the transmitters or receivers. It all "j=
ust depends". To state a specific rule is just plain incorrect.
>
> I contend that once you remove the magic and myths surrounding AC=
coupling capacitors, analysis of the 3D structure shows that by reducing=
the signal path discontinuity through the capacitor, you will necessaril=
y improve performance. An AC coupling capacitor, with it's associated vi=
a and pad transition design, can be viewed as a black box which has inser=
tion loss and return loss, and can be modeled quite well using either lum=
ped element approximations or (my favorite) S-parameters. As such it wil=
l cascade in a simulation model just like any other linear element. If w=
e start with a system with flat 50 ohm impedance from end to end, it can =
be easily shown that no matter what the position of the capacitor along t=
he interconnect is, the insertion loss of the system is identical. It is=
only the return loss, as seen from each end that changes.
>
> I've been designing AC coupling capacitor mounting transitions pr=
operly for quite a few years now and have some 0402 designs that keep S12=
above -0.2 dB up to 7.5 GHz, S12 below -20 dB @ 5 GHz, and below -15 dB =
@ 10 GHz. For all practical purposes, these designs are transparent and =
may be placed anywhere in an interconnect design where there is space, si=
nce there is little resonance interaction with other devices and structur=
es.
>
>
> Scott
>
>
> Scott McMorrow
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> 121 North River Drive
> Narragansett, RI 02882
> (401) 284-1827 Business
> (401) 284-1840 Fax
>
> http://www.teraspeed.com
>
> Teraspeed=AE is the registered service mark of
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> =20
>
> Stephen Zinck wrote:=20
> Hi Scott,
>
> My simulations show that the capacitor is best placed at the re=
ceiver end of the transmission-line. Do you disagree? If so, why?
>
> Steve
>
> Stephen P. Zinck
> Interconnect Engineering Inc.
> P.O. Box 577
> South Berwick, ME 03908
> Phone - (207) 384-8280
> Email - szinck@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Web - www.interconnectengineering.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: Scott McMorrow=20
> To: signalintegrity@xxxxxxxxxxx=20
> Cc: jory_mckinley@xxxxxxxxx ; leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; npat=
el@xxxxxxxxxx ; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: AC Coupled Signals
>
>
> Stephen,
>
> I'm sorry, this is a linear system. Except for possible reso=
nances that are created by discontinuities and modal conversion (which ha=
ve absolutely zero to do with signal rise time), there is no difference i=
n the attenuation of a capacitor placed at the Tx as opposed at the Rx. =
W.R.T. the receiver, if it is "lost in the rise-time degradation of the =
system", it will be lost wherever it is placed.
>
>
>
> Scott McMorrow
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> 121 North River Drive
> Narragansett, RI 02882
> (401) 284-1827 Business
> (401) 284-1840 Fax
>
> http://www.teraspeed.com
>
> Teraspeed=AE is the registered service mark of
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> =20
>
> Stephen Zinck wrote:=20
> Hi Jory,
>
> I have simulated this at length and concur with your experience that th=
e=20
> capacitor is best placed at the receiver...
>
> In effect, the attenuation associated with the capacitor placement at t=
he=20
> receiver (parasitics/pads/vias) is lost in the rise-time degradation of=
the=20
> system.
> The classic "don't break it until you have to" rule is applicable... OK=
this=20
> is my rule... :-)
>
> All the best,
> Steve
>
> Stephen P. Zinck
> Interconnect Engineering Inc.
> P.O. Box 577
> South Berwick, ME 03908
> Phone - (207) 384-8280
> Email - szinck@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Web - www.interconnectengineering.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: "Jory McKinley" <jory_mckinley@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <npatel@xxxxxxxxxx>; <si-list@freelists=
=2Eorg>
> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 5:31 PM
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: AC Coupled Signals
>
>
> I will elaborate a bit on what I have seen. I have measured (time dom=
ain)=20
> in the lab some effects that appears to be location specific in the=20
> placement of the AC coupling caps at the rcvr. Now this may be due in =
part=20
> to the fact that I am using 50-ohm resistor termination in each lead as=
=20
> well and the combination (cap plus rcvr reflection) is giving some=20
> imbalance depending on distance. The best rcvr eye that I am seeing is=
=20
> when I can move the AC/term as close to the rcvr as I can. By the way =
> these are 5Gb/s signals.
> If I have time I will try and isolate what I am seeing and even simulat=
e=20
> it, has anyone else seen or simulated this?
> -Jory
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Lee Ritchey <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "npatel@xxxxxxxxxx" <npatel@xxxxxxxxxx>; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:06:06 PM
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: AC Coupled Signals
>
> Nikil,
>
> I have made measurements on test PCBs and the location is not all that
> important. In identical pairs, one with AC coupling capacitors and the=
> other without, the loss vs. frequency is virtually identical at leas ou=
t=20
> to
> 6 GHz. That would be 12 Mb/S.
>
> Lee Ritchey
>
>
> [Original Message]
> From: <npatel@xxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 9/24/2007 10:21:37 AM
> Subject: [SI-LIST] AC Coupled Signals
>
> Hi all,
> In case of AC coupled signals does anyone know of an optimum placement
> for the caps? I mean should they be placed near the source, receiver,
> middle of the transmission line?
> How much difference does it make in the opening of the eye?
> The signals are differential CML running at 3.0Gbps
>
> Thanks,
> Nikhil
>
>
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--=20
Steve Weir
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC=20
121 North River Drive=20
Narragansett, RI 02882=20
California office
(408) 884-3985 Business
(707) 780-1951 Fax
Main office
(401) 284-1827 Business=20
(401) 284-1840 Fax=20
Oregon office
(503) 430-1065 Business
(503) 430-1285 Fax
http://www.teraspeed.com
This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property o=
f Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
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