[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Shoulders and shoulder layback in puppies
- From: "Nancy Harper" <nancy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "carolyn mckenna" <carolynmckenna@xxxxxxxxx>, <marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Doris Estabrook" <irrenhaus4@xxxxxxxxxxx>, <Windwalkergsds@xxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:32:29 -0500
Carolyn,
This is so true. I believe the MANY components that make up the great
shoulder is ONE of the reasons we don't see it (the great shoulder ) as much as
we would like to. Lay back of the blade, length of blade, lay "in" of the
blade, angle at which the blade and the upper arm meet, length of upper arm.
The great muscle needed connecting the shoulder all the way down to the
foreleg, length of neck allowing the long strong muscles and ligaments to form
the attachment to the blade, etc, etc, etc. Of course, the correctly
performing rear that ALLOWS that shoulder to "open" must be there as the
Carolyn M stated. Barb Williams put it all there in her description; which
boils down to perfect balance. with good angle (but not overdone) athlete with
"heart and desire".
Lothario was the closest to this we have had, he needed shorter hocks , but he
did have power in the rear. He was "loose" in one shoulder coming at you, he
tended to rotate out and back in FROM THE SHOULDER, not the elbow. He did
possess the "look" (breed type, style) we loved for which he was mostly
dominant - we can still see that in some of our pups as everything we have goes
back to him.
----- Original Message -----
From: carolyn mckenna
To: marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; Nancy Harper ; Doris Estabrook ;
Windwalkergsds@xxxxxx
Cc: The List
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Shoulders and shoulder layback in puppies
A resounding YES to Carolyn, Nancy, Jamie, Doris and her dad !
It is the overall "put-together" , but we might address something else in
respect to front angulation.....that is shoulder placement. We are
seeing many dogs whose front assemblies are pushed forward, something
very briefly addressed in our standard. Our standard also asks for the
blade 45% to the ground and articulation of blade to upper arm approximately
90%, the upper arm, then, also 45% to the ground. It is a simple given
that this being the case, the elbow would be directly under the top of the
blade, A pushed forward front is usually accompanied by an upright upper
arm and a short neck. Length of neck is important due to the muscle that
inserts at the second vertebrae and extends to the bottom of the upper arm.
The longer any muscle, the more contraction. Thus length of neck ,not
exaggerated, of course, is directly related to reach, lift and moving from the
elbow rather than from the shoulder in that long straight line.
Also,standing,
the poll of the neck will be in a direct line with the point of shoulder. If
you are
fortunate enough to have the picture that Dave uses in his seminar, look
at the perfect proportions that he points out, all of them noted on the
picture.
Carolyn
Carolyn <marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Nancy Harper's answer impressed me the most because she is speaking to the
OVERALL look
of a new puppy......not just shoulder layback. Actually shoulder angulation
is one of the easiest
parts to 'feel' or 'see' on a new puppy IMO. But...perfect shoulder amgles
will do you no good
without correct coupling, good backs, good croups, rear angles that produce
powerful thrust to
drive the dog forward to utilize that perfect front.
It's the OVERALL look that we look for in the new puppies beginning with
perfect coupling, nice
shoulder assembly, curves, length of neck, ( as Jamie mentioned also )
ribbing, etc.
THAT puppy will have that "distinct look" as Nancy says as everything is a
perfect picture. The
truth comes out later if It can be seen in the ring when the dog moves at
any speed. If the front
doesn't match the drive off the rear with a beautiful "bridge" of a back in
between and a gait
that appears to look like a "well oiled machine" .......... it is all for
naught anyway.
Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.Marhaven.com
----- Original Message ----- From: Nancy Harper To: irrenhaus4@xxxxxxxxxxx
; Windwalkergsds@xxxxxx Cc: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re:
Shoulders and shoulder layback in puppies
I also believe in that - as Jamie pointed out when they are "wet" the skin
looks like a thin cover over
the skeleton. It is interesting in our line that our better ones usually
have a distinct "look" which I
can onlydescribe as "" , it was Canadian Select Am Ch O'Danny Boy ROM, A
lot of luck I know but
there "something" about those that stand out to me. Nancy
********************************************
>
>>Just a fun question ->>
>>How many in GSD "think" they can tell shoulders on a newborn pup?
***************************************************************
>>
>>Jess, I like to "think" I can pick my shoulders when they are wet-born.
>>They lie there wet
and flaccid, the little skeletons outlined for you to see >>length of bones
and how they
correspond, etc. I'm always glad to see a new-born >>with (what appears to
be) an
exaggerated length of neck because they will>>usually have a good neck and
layback.
Just my observation....but then,I'm>>"nutty" too. >>>>> Jamie
*******************************************>
>*My dad was a long-time breeder. He always said the time to look was
immediately. In other words,"read'em wet". I have found this to be mostly
helpful through the years. Mostly, because nothing is absolute. There have
been times this does not apply, but most of the time it does. Of course it
is helpful to have knowledge of your bloodlines, both sides. He always
looked for a long neck. Doris E*
>
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are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
PROSECUTED.
For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx
VISIT OUR WEBSITE - www.showgsd.org
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