A resounding YES to Carolyn, Nancy, Jamie, Doris and her dad ! It is the overall "put-together" , but we might address something else in respect to front angulation.....that is shoulder placement. We are seeing many dogs whose front assemblies are pushed forward, something very briefly addressed in our standard. Our standard also asks for the blade 45% to the ground and articulation of blade to upper arm approximately 90%, the upper arm, then, also 45% to the ground. It is a simple given that this being the case, the elbow would be directly under the top of the blade, A pushed forward front is usually accompanied by an upright upper arm and a short neck. Length of neck is important due to the muscle that inserts at the second vertebrae and extends to the bottom of the upper arm. The longer any muscle, the more contraction. Thus length of neck ,not exaggerated, of course, is directly related to reach, lift and moving from the elbow rather than from the shoulder in that long straight line. Also,standing, the poll of the neck will be in a direct line with the point of shoulder. If you are fortunate enough to have the picture that Dave uses in his seminar, look at the perfect proportions that he points out, all of them noted on the picture. Carolyn Carolyn <marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Nancy Harper's answer impressed me the most because she is speaking to the OVERALL look of a new puppy......not just shoulder layback. Actually shoulder angulation is one of the easiest parts to 'feel' or 'see' on a new puppy IMO. But...perfect shoulder amgles will do you no good without correct coupling, good backs, good croups, rear angles that produce powerful thrust to drive the dog forward to utilize that perfect front. It's the OVERALL look that we look for in the new puppies beginning with perfect coupling, nice shoulder assembly, curves, length of neck, ( as Jamie mentioned also ) ribbing, etc. THAT puppy will have that "distinct look" as Nancy says as everything is a perfect picture. The truth comes out later if It can be seen in the ring when the dog moves at any speed. If the front doesn't match the drive off the rear with a beautiful "bridge" of a back in between and a gait that appears to look like a "well oiled machine" .......... it is all for naught anyway. Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx www.Marhaven.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Nancy Harper To: irrenhaus4@xxxxxxxxxxx ; Windwalkergsds@xxxxxx Cc: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Shoulders and shoulder layback in puppies I also believe in that - as Jamie pointed out when they are "wet" the skin looks like a thin cover over the skeleton. It is interesting in our line that our better ones usually have a distinct "look" which I can onlydescribe as "" , it was Canadian Select Am Ch O'Danny Boy ROM, A lot of luck I know but there "something" about those that stand out to me. Nancy ******************************************** > >>Just a fun question ->> >>How many in GSD "think" they can tell shoulders on a newborn pup? *************************************************************** >> >>Jess, I like to "think" I can pick my shoulders when they are wet-born. >>They lie there wet and flaccid, the little skeletons outlined for you to see >>length of bones and how they correspond, etc. I'm always glad to see a new-born >>with (what appears to be) an exaggerated length of neck because they will>>usually have a good neck and layback. Just my observation....but then,I'm>>"nutty" too. >>>>> Jamie *******************************************> >*My dad was a long-time breeder. He always said the time to look was immediately. In other words,"read'em wet". I have found this to be mostly helpful through the years. Mostly, because nothing is absolute. There have been times this does not apply, but most of the time it does. Of course it is helpful to have knowledge of your bloodlines, both sides. He always looked for a long neck. Doris E* > ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2007. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. 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