Wow. While perusing the posts before a mass delete, I sorted through these "bettering the breed" posts and just shook my head. The OFA zealots have taken rein again and have run amuck with the list. Bloody hell. And while I'm at it, I'm going to say this. PRE-LIMMED ---- as In PRELIMINARY X-rays. Not PRELIMBED. which I can't imagine how the spell checkers that are in most programs let that one through. I mean. Pre---before, earlier . Limbs? I hate to say it. yes, bringing this up is probably considerably catty. but if we're going have to have this conversation at least we should have our terminology correct. Next. X-rays and the OFA are TOOLS. Nothing More, Nothing Less. If wise breeders are preliminary x-raying their youngsters prior to investing $thousands, then they are doing the smart thing. If the aren't, that's their business --- not the OFA Zealot's business to start in about hip dysplasia and elbow dysplasia "wreaking havoc on the breed" which is entirely untrue. The breeders have made great strides in reducing the numbers of animals that have hip dysplasia in our breed!! Here's a Statistic. I bred my first litter in 1987 and at that time, this breed was ranked number 20 for bad hips with the OFA. As of 12/31/2004 (visiting the OFA website), our breed is NUMBER 37!! Of course there is still room for improvement, which is why I think the PC's AOE and Select Excellent programs are very beneficial to the breed as a whole. Now, all this being said, I think that it would be wise for some people, prior to espousing their opinions on how the breeders of this breed are doing it a disservice by not "prelimbing" or "OFAing" to stop and take a look at the progress that has been made in a 20 years. If you don't like what people are doing with their breeding programs. DON'T BUY A PUPPY FROM THEM OR BREED TO THEIR STUD DOGS. It's simple. I will only say one other thing on the side of the Zealots --- We do have too many crafty breeders in this breed who hide their dog's and the resulting progeny's problems. I think far more insidious are those breeders that tack stomachs and intestines down prior to a dog being shown to prevent "bloat or torsion". Don't say it doesn't happen. it does and we all know it. Far more insidious than bad hips are the animals that are still standing at stud with serious back anomalies that are also producing these back anomalies in their progeny --- to the level that some are not seen after 2 years of age because of functionality issues related to these back anomalies. How about this. It is unspoken how many animals are put down (in various ways) for whatever reason --- And to that point, I've often wondered when I read the Red Book --- the statistics that can be found in there really make me wonder. How does a dog have 40+ litters, producing 200+ puppies, and have less than 60% of those animals registered? What are the bitch owners doing with 40+/-% of the puppies? Also telling is the low numbers of puppies per registered litters. If a dog is bred say 40 times and they only have 200 puppies, that an average of only 5 puppies per litter. It used to be our breed was prolific, and litters would be an average of 6-7 puppies. I know that sounds like only a small number, but 1 puppy average difference translates into 40 puppies, 40 more chances of a good one being produced. Is it a fertility issue; bad management of the stud dogs/brood bitches, or ?? See, I'm using another TOOL --- The Red Book. I will be sending our new Red Book Chair some ideas to make this TOOL better and more concise because I have admittedly not been regularly getting my red books and the information contained there --- can be particularly important to view --- when trying to determine the producing true producing ability of an animal. Regards, Kathaleen ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2005. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org ============================================================================