RE: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 11:13:27 -0500
For the same reason in fact I am not sure any longer which has more modules
Pearl or python and I will repeat I have coded in both and you have not.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian Rasnita
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 4:16 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
Of course python is accessible. I didn't say that it isn't.
I said that it is less friendly than other languages, and in this message
you told me exactly this.
Of course that after making an effort and getting used to the indentation it
is easier to use it, but why making that effort?
Maybe those who know Braille and use a Braille display would find python
code even easier, but I also don't know Braille at all, so a Braille display
wouldn't help me either.
What you say that can be done with python regarding the documentation, I
also can do when I code in perl, by just pressing a hotkey defined by me in
TextPad, and in the text box that appear, I write the name of the perl
module or perl built in function I am interested in and press enter, and it
shows the documentation for it in plain text.
But at least perl offers very many modules on CPAN that I can use for
needing to write as few lines of code as possible, so why to choose python?
Because it has a strong OOP support? Java and C# also has strong OOP
support, but their syntax is much more friendly for the blind.
Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 5:21 AM
Subject: RE: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>
>
> I am going to break in on this discussion of Python for the blind. I am
> betting a lot of you have not used the Icon, or the Braille plus PDA's. I
> have a feeling this may change in the future but I can't say more than
> that.
> I can say though I am one of the new coders at APH on the Braille plus and
> Icon. Now this fits both discussions that are going on on this list
> because
> the OS that the device runs on is OE Linux, with Eloquence as the speech,
> and the programming language we are currently using to make the GUI's is
> Python 2.4. I don't know if they want it known how many people are
> working
> on this project but its less than 10 and around 75 % are blind or very low
> vision. So that means we are coding in c and c++ for the drivers and the
> OE
> Linux and python to make all the stuff like file browser, Word Processor,
> daisy book reader, bookshare downloader that is really cool, Radio tuner,
> Calendar (the most accessible calendar I have ever seen), music player,
> and
> so much more. Not only do we have it so we have a GUI in python but
> anyone
> can add applications to the device by writing their own thanks to python.
>
> Now with all that said let me return to the question of is python
> accessible
> to the blind. Most of you that really know me on this list know that I
> breath and eat c and c++ I can write it in my sleep and compile it in my
> brain. I rarely look things up and if I have more than 2 errors in a 300
> line function that I write from scratch I am mad. Before I took the job
> at
> APH I had coded about 3 things in python and they were all small tools. I
> hated it. I didn't like how you had to space things and I missed not
> having
> semi colons be the line enders. I hated how some things were functions
> and
> some things were built in (fixed in python 3.0) but we are talking about
> python 2.4. I have been working for APH now since September 15th. And my
> dislike for python has almost vanished.
>
> Lining up code is no work at all when you have editors like ed sharp, or
> boxer or other editors that keep your indent at the same level and are
> able
> to show you the indents when you want. I can easily find my indent level
> with boxer and I have already been known to write functions over 100 lines
> of code with no errors. The coolest part about python though is you can
> find out what are in classes without documentation you just run up the
> python interpreter and do
>
> Dir (time)
>
> It will show you all the things you can do with time not only that but it
> will show you all the classes variables and if it has a document function.
> You can use that in code to so what you do with the command line you can
> do
> with code. How many times have you aid dang I wish I knew what arguments
> this function takes. In .net you would arrow through the intelesense and
> it
> would give you the arguments but unless Jaws is happy that doesn't always
> read right but in python you can use the inspect module to find out not
> only
> how many arguments but what their types are if they have default values
> and
> what those default values are. So if you get some library that you have
> no
> idea what it does it takes you about 5 minutes of commands and your now
> able
> to use it. That is amazing to me. Even Java docs is harder than that.
>
>
> Python has it all it has classes functions generic coding like I have
> never
> seen other than maybe in Java but even Java makes you jump through more
> bells and whistles to get some of the things done. You can stick ints in
> classes classes in ints because Python don't care what you stick where it
> will try to do what you want and if it can't it will be pretty clear about
> why it won't.
>
> In this short time I have been with APH I have 4 working applications
> under
> my belt and more on the way. I can't tell you what they all are but its
> pretty impressive what you can do in a short time by combining what python
> has by default. Even better though if you're a c or c++ coder like me and
> python does something too slow for your liking no problem. You just code
> yourself a plug in and give python access to it and wamo you have a new
> python module that everyone on the device can use.
>
> I have not reached the speed in coding that I have in c and c++ but I am
> pretty fast at it and I no longer make the indention mistakes I had
> before.
> One secret is to set your tab to 4 and make sure it uses spaces. I had it
> set at 2 to start but I found that 2 spaces per tab made it hard to find
> spacing problems but 4 was much easier I don't know why but it does make a
> difference. The other secret is to have a editor that can read how many
> spaces somehow. I would suggest Jamals ed sharp if you want to have it
> easy
> but I wouldn't suggest the converter he has yet it's still kind of buggy.
> I
> like boxer because I have used it since MsDos 5.0 and I just know how it
> works. If I didn't have boxer I would be using ed sharp. Another
> secret
> is to break things up into separate files. The nice thing is you can run
> each file through the interpreter and it will spit out errors even if your
> not running it so if you have a function that is called from one file to
> another you can check that function just buy running it through the
> interpreter it don't care that you don't have a main like c or c++ or
> Java.
> It's more like Pearl that way. It doesn't care that you don't run the
> function it just checks its syntax and returns. You might think the more
> files it would be slower and that's not the case. In fact it speeds it up
> because Python is smart it pre compiles to an object but it don't load
> things totally unless it needs it. Another thing I have recently learned
> is
> don't try to use a lot of try except blocks to catch errors when you start
> out. The reason is if you have something in a try except block you might
> have a hard time finding it because python will happily go on without
> telling you there was a problem if you don't do something with the error
> and
> something you see in a lot of books is
>
> Try:
> Code to do something
> Except:
> Pass
>
> Which means if that something errors just go on. This sounds great but
> the
> problem is it doesn't give you a log error or anything so you might cover
> up
> errors you need to know about if you are being lazy and that causes some
> real problems take it from me I spent 2 days finding a one line error
> because I covered it in two try except pass statements. Let python error
> and fix the errors rather than catch them if you have to use try make sure
> you know what you're doing it can be nice if used right.
>
> Anyway so the shorter answer to the question is hell yes the python
> environment is accessible. One of the better free screen readers is
> written
> in python and while I was worried at first about working on a device using
> python I am pretty amazed at how it works now.
>
> To go back to the Linux question and if you got this far I am amazed but
> anyway I also like Linux the other day we got a device in and the 40 gb
> drive was having problems. One of the blind techs took it and using the
> speak up commands on the console of it ( yes the Braille plus uses speakup
> at the console) re-partitioned the drive by unmounting it while using our
> flash drive and re formatted it and got its bad clusters fixed. Try that
> on
> a windows CE or even a desktop machine. Not to mention we had a problem
> with Braille input devices I won't say what but we made a slight change to
> the Kernel code and fixed it try that on a windows machine when the
> problem
> is in the kernel. If you're not a geek then maybe it's better you stick
> with Windows you can always pay someone 30 bucks to 79$ an hour to fix
> your
> hard drive crashes but I personally want to be able to fix my own problems
> and that means not having to totally reinstall my computer I want to be
> able
> to work on it and the only Operating system right now that we can do that
> on
> is Linux unless you count the Mac at the command line. The problem with
> the
> Mac is when you have a problem with a mac and that pretty question mark
> comes up (like the windows screen of death) There is only one fix and
> that
> is reinstall. Linux is more robust than that and the only death cries I
> have heard from Linux have been hard ware based. Even back in October
> 2003
> when a hacker got my network Linux box my ISP told me and we fixed it. I
> didn't have to go in and reinstall all the OS because even though we had
> been hacked Linux kept them where we could contain them. This was without
> a
> firewall and virus checker installed it just has more division of user
> space
> and root access something Windows is only starting to learn and people are
> really bitching about that.
>
> Anyway I will get off my soap box but no one will ever convince me that
> Windows is more accessible. Its more easy to use but it's not more
> accessible. As for python if you code in any language and I mean any and
> you learn its little quirks you can code in it
>
> Ken
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
> Rasnita
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 4:25 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>
> Well, I would also like to know what Jamal thinks about the friendlyness
> of
> Python for the blind.
>
> Octavian
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tyler Littlefield" <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 9:01 PM
> Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>
>
>> um... since when is it not "blind friendly?" Tell jamal that, and nick
>> here too. Unless they've got a switch in the back of their head. If you
>> go
>
>> take classes somewhere to get certified, you can't just say "it's not
>> blind friendly, so just pass me."
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tyler Littlefield
>> email: tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> web: tysdomain-com
>> Visit for quality software and web design.
>> skype: st8amnd2005
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 11:52 AM
>> Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>>
>>
>>>I didn't say that the applications made with python are not accessible.
>>> Python might use more libraries for creating the GUI, and if those
>>> libraries can create an accessible GUI (like WxPython for example), then
>>> those programs created with python will be as accessible as those
>>> created
>
>>> with wxWidgets with any other programming language.
>>>
>>> What I said was that the programming language is not friendly for the
>>> blind, because it forces us to indent the code very strictly, while most
>>> other programming languages don't do this.
>>> Using indentation is recommended by the sighted programmers because an
>>> indented code is much easy to understand visually, but a blind
>>> programmer
>
>>> can't see the entire screen and understand the flow of the program, so
>>> the indentation is pretty useless.
>>>
>>> So we might miss a single space and the program won't compile just
>>> because of that.
>>>
>>> But just like other languages like VB or ruby, python doesn't use braces
>>> for defining blocks, and without beeing able to see the screen entirely,
>>> it is hard to jump from the beginning of a block to the end of the
>>> block,
>
>>> or to select that block of code, and it is also harder to know if the
>>> current line is a new line or if it is just the previous line which is
>>> very very long.
>>>
>>> With other words, I also don't like python because it forces us to do
>>> many things in a single way only, but no doubt, if it would have a
>>> syntax
>
>>> like Java, perl or C#, I would have liked them much more.
>>>
>>> Octavian
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Nick Stockton" <nstockton@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:15 PM
>>> Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hmmm why do you say python is "one of the least friendly programming
>>>> languages for the blind"? I started learning python a month or so ago
>>>> and in around a week I had written a program complete with a GUI and
>>>> install wizard that looks up barcodes on bcscan.com and will
>>>> automatically speak the output using the jfw and wineyes com objects as
>>>> well as putting the output in a read-only edit box and automatically
>>>> setting focus to it so the output can be reviewed with the up and down
>>>> arrows. I also made a button to pull up the edit page on bcscan.com
>>>> for
>
>>>> the item you scanned in your default web browser so you can add or edit
>>>> the item info. I also made hotkeys ALT-b to set focus to the barcode
>>>> entry edit box, ALT-o to set focus to the output and alt-e to activate
>>>> the add/edit button. All this from me, a python newbie who doesn't
>>>> know
>
>>>> any other programming language in just over a week!
>>>> And what you might ask is my secret? Three things: The python tutorial
>>>> at python.org, the speakup screen reader under gnu/linux and my most
>>>> secret weapon of all... google.
>>>>
>>>> Nick Stockton
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 2:58 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> No I don't recommend perl if is needed to create that kind of program.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perl is the best for web apps which are not very simple, and it is
>>>>> also
>
>>>>> good for desktop apps that require some specific things that can be
>>>>> done using some CPAN modules, because that way the coder won't need to
>>>>> do very low-level programming as he might need to do with languages
>>>>> like Java or python.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the program is just one that should be used by a single person, and
>>>>> if it doesn't need to be portable, and if it doesn't require very
>>>>> complicated things, I would also recommend C#. I don't like VB.net
>>>>> though. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, from the perspective of accessibility and responsiveness, the
>>>>> best choice is no doubt C++ with MFC, but it is much harder to create
>>>>> a
>
>>>>> program with C++/MFC than with DotNet, so DotNet is now prefered.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, Java with SWT could be also a solution, but unfortunately
>>>>> there is no accessible forms designer for the blind for creating
>>>>> programs with SWT like with DotNet.
>>>>>
>>>>> And python is one of the least friendly programming language for the
>>>>> blind so of course I can't recommend it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Octavian
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Tyler Littlefield" <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 4:17 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I would recommend c# or vb.net.
>>>>>> Teddy will no doubt recommend perl, but I think vb.net or c# would be
>>>>>> the best for you
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Tyler Littlefield
>>>>>> email: tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> web: tysdomain-com
>>>>>> Visit for quality software and web design.
>>>>>> skype: st8amnd2005
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Jose Lomeli" <jose.lomeli93@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:18 PM
>>>>>> Subject: e: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I am thinking of using python or vb6 or any other ones. I want to
>>>>>>>create a checkings and savings program. Please write back.
>>>>>>> From Jose Lomeli.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>From: "Tyler Littlefield" <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>Date sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:04:17 -0700
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>hello,
>>>>>>>>first we need to decide what language your going to use. any
>>>>>>> ideas?
>>>>>>>>What kind of programs do you want to write?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>>Tyler Littlefield
>>>>>>>>email: tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>web: tysdomain-com
>>>>>>>>Visit for quality software and web design.
>>>>>>>>skype: st8amnd2005
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>From: "Jose Lomeli" <jose.lomeli93@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 10:57 PM
>>>>>>>>Subject: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hello; Listers, I am new to programming and I want to start
>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>> this. What are some tips and tricks I should know about and
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>> program do I use for this and where can I download it? Please
>>>>>>>>> write back.
>>>>>>>>> From Jose Lomeli.
>>>>>>>>> __________
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