Re: Seeking feedback from speech users of Python
- From: Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:20:14 -0500 (EST)
That makes sense that the <pre> tag would be needed to preserve
indentation of Python code. Perhaps explicit, nonbreaking spaces might
also work. If you can find out whether tab or space characters make a
difference with the JAWS virtual view of a web page, please let us know.
Jamal
On
Mon, 17 Dec 2007 james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:45:50 -0500
> From: james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Seeking feedback from speech users of Python
>
> Hi Jamal,
> For me, reading Python code on the web with indentation matters because
> indentation matters in Python. It's also nice to have it preserved if I
> want to paste some code from the web into a program. I don't have to go
> through it and make sure the indentation is perfect. If I remember
> correctly, the pre tag seems to work best with JAWS. I will try to be more
> observant and report back.
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
>
> James D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
> james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810
>
> "Never doubt that a thoughtful group of committed citizens can change the
> world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
>
>
>
>
> "Jamal Mazrui"
> <empower@xxxxxxxx
> t> To
> Sent by: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> programmingblind- cc
> bounce@freelists.
> org Subject
> Re: Seeking feedback from speech
> users of Python
> 12/17/2007 11:22
> AM
>
>
> Please respond to
> programmingblind@
> freelists.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Jim,
> I'll be curious whether PyBrace makes more of a difference when you do
> not have braille as an extra help with indentation.
>
> Regarding the opening brace, I did not precede it with a space because I
> noticed that Python code generally does not precede the colon with a
> space. If you code in PyBrace style, however, it will still convert to
> PyDent (with Alt+LeftBracket) if you use a preceding space.
>
> Can you answer my question about Python code on web pages -- or can any
> other Python programmers listening?
>
> Jamal
> On Mon, 17 Dec
> 2007 james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>
> > Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:17:31 -0500
> > From: james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: Seeking feedback from speech users of Python
> >
> > Hi Jamal,
> > Since I am a braille user for things involving accuracy, I sort of depend
> > on it to some degree for python. I will be starting to do Python at home.
> I
> > don't use braille there. I don't foresee an indentation problem there
> > either though. Braille makes some things more convenient. Things like not
> > having to arrow over so many characters when checking accuracy and being
> > able to press cursor routing buttons to make the cursor jump to the exact
> > cell where I want to input things. I've gotten used to feeling the
> > indentations. That helps me section off things mentally.
> >
> > Regarding beeps and so on, my indentation scheme plays a door lock close
> at
> > level 0 and notes of the C major scale up to level 6. When the
> indentation
> > goes down by one note, I know that something above has closed. This, of
> > course, assumes that I have indented my code properly. Since I usually
> > write code and test it in little bits, I usually don't have a problem
> with
> > indentation compiler errors. That said, though, I will experiment with
> the
> > new feature to see what I think of it. Is it documented in the
> > documentation file?
> >
> > Regarding spaces and tabs, I don't use tabs in EdSharp because EdSharp
> > indents them using eight spaces. I would use them if I could control how
> > many spaces they turned into. Then, at the end of my session, I would
> > probably turn tabs into four spaces right before I distributed source
> code,
> > since that seems to be the preferred way of doing things. For braille,
> > though, I might want it to go all the way down to one space if I could
> get
> > used to it. I like two right now though.
> >
> >
> > James D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
> > james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810
> >
> > "Never doubt that a thoughtful group of committed citizens can change the
> > world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Jamal Mazrui"
> > <empower@xxxxxxxx
> > t>
> To
> > Sent by: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > programmingblind-
> cc
> > bounce@freelists.
> > org
> Subject
> > Re: Seeking feedback from speech
> > users of Python
> > 12/17/2007 08:56
> > AM
> >
> >
> > Please respond to
> > programmingblind@
> > freelists.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for the feedback, Jim.
> >
> > An advantage of PyBrace over beeps or words that indicate a change of
> > indentation is that a comment is automatically generated that indicates
> > what code block has closed. Thus, one does not have to recall that a
> > "while" was two beeps in and and "if" was one beep.
> >
> > Yes, in EdSharp, Alt+Home goes to the first nonblank character of a line,
> > and indeed, its purpose is to skip over indentation. Home without the
> Alt
> > modifier key is just easier and more habitual to press, and the purpose
> of
> > PyBrace is to maximize usability for a speech and keyboard user.
> >
> > Regarding space versus tab for indentation, does one work better when
> JAWS
> > displays a web page with the virtual buffer? Richard has reported that
> > some Python code loses its indentation in this mode, whereas other
> > indentation is preserved. Obviously, preserving it is important when
> > reading Python code on the web. I was guessing that a tab character was
> > more likely to be preserved than a space, so that was partly why I chose
> > it ininitially, but I was guessing there. To me, tab also makes more
> > sense logically because a single tab character can be used rather than
> > multiple spaces, and the user can often adjust the display width of a tab
> > character in his or her editor. I do recall, however, that Perl style
> > guidelines recommend spaces (4) and Ruby's recommend them as well (2),
> > so it does not surprise me that Python guidelines have developed
> > similarly. I will probably make EdSharp use whatever the user has set
> for
> > the IndentationUnit in the configuration dialog.
> >
> > To what extent do you use braille when programming in Python?
> >
> > Jamal
> > On Mon, 17 Dec 2007
> > james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> >
> > > Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:37:57 -0500
> > > From: james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: Re: Seeking feedback from speech users of Python
> > >
> > > Hi Jamal,
> > > While I appreciate the effort you put in to make this feature, I have
> > some
> > > feedback. I use JAWS indentation scheme that plays notes for indent
> > > levels. That scheme is very efficient for me because it plays the notes
> > as
> > > the lines are beginning to speak. That is more efficient than waiting
> for
> > > JAWS or EdSharp to tell me the indent level. Second, I think the
> feature
> > > needs to use spaces instead of tabs because that is the feedback I am
> > > hearing from the Python Tutor list.
> > >
> > > Jim
> > >
> > > James D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
> > > james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810
> > >
> > > "Never doubt that a thoughtful group of committed citizens can change
> the
> > > world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Jamal Mazrui"
> > > <empower@xxxxxxxx
> > > t>
> > To
> > > Sent by: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > programmingblind-
> > cc
> > > bounce@freelists.
> > > org
> > Subject
> > > Seeking feedback from speech
> users
> > > of Python
> > > 12/14/2007 10:36
> > > PM
> > >
> > >
> > > Please respond to
> > > programmingblind@
> > > freelists.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I have included an experimental feature in EdSharp
> > > http://www.EmpowermentZone.com/edsetup.exe
> > >
> > > In seeking a more efficient way of managing the indentation
> requirement,
> > I
> > > am trying a coding style called PyBrace, where the colon and indented
> > > block are replaced by a set of curly braces surrounding the block.
> > > Alt+Shift+LeftBracket (think of the brace character) turns either all
> or
> > > selected text into this style of code, which makes it easy to
> understand
> > > the structure with speech.
> > >
> > > The inverse command is called PyDent, Alt+LeftBracket, which converts
> > from
> > > PyBrace format to the equivalent indentation required by the Python
> > > interpreter.
> > >
> > > PyBrace assumes that the opening brace will be at the end of the line
> of
> > > text that starts the block, and the closing brace will be on a line by
> > > itself. Also, PyDent assumes that a single tab character is used for
> > each
> > > level of indentation -- though I intend to support other indentation
> > > conventions as well if this approach seems productive.
> > >
> > > I have been able to convert to and from PyBrace and run a Python script
> > > successfully (the Python fruit basket program). If anyone else can try
> > > this approach, and let me know your results as well as any other ideas
> > for
> > > improvement, that would be helpful.
> > >
> > > Jamal
> > >
> > > __________
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> > >
> > >
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