Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:17:55 -0800
From: rrdinger <rrdinger@xxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Seeking feedback from speech users of Python
Yes, I have seen indentation levels lost on web pages. I think it is a
jaws
feature. On the thinking like a computer scientist page, python code is
indented two spaces per level and it displays just fine in jaws. The
Diving
into python web page, however, sometimes does and sometimes does not
display
correctly. Finally, most python books from BookShare (O'Riley) do not
display correctly (maybe because they are scanned?), but most things can
be
figured out--it just takes a bit of care.
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:56 AM
Subject: Re: Seeking feedback from speech users of Python
> Thanks for the feedback, Jim.
>
> An advantage of PyBrace over beeps or words that indicate a change of
> indentation is that a comment is automatically generated that indicates
> what code block has closed. Thus, one does not have to recall that a
> "while" was two beeps in and and "if" was one beep.
>
> Yes, in EdSharp, Alt+Home goes to the first nonblank character of a
> line,
> and indeed, its purpose is to skip over indentation. Home without the
> Alt
> modifier key is just easier and more habitual to press, and the purpose
> of
> PyBrace is to maximize usability for a speech and keyboard user.
>
> Regarding space versus tab for indentation, does one work better when
> JAWS
> displays a web page with the virtual buffer? Richard has reported that
> some Python code loses its indentation in this mode, whereas other
> indentation is preserved. Obviously, preserving it is important when
> reading Python code on the web. I was guessing that a tab character
> was
> more likely to be preserved than a space, so that was partly why I
> chose
> it ininitially, but I was guessing there. To me, tab also makes more
> sense logically because a single tab character can be used rather than
> multiple spaces, and the user can often adjust the display width of a
> tab
> character in his or her editor. I do recall, however, that Perl style
> guidelines recommend spaces (4) and Ruby's recommend them as well (2),
> so it does not surprise me that Python guidelines have developed
> similarly. I will probably make EdSharp use whatever the user has set
> for
> the IndentationUnit in the configuration dialog.
>
> To what extent do you use braille when programming in Python?
>
> Jamal
> On Mon, 17 Dec 2007
> james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>
>> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:37:57 -0500
>> From: james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Seeking feedback from speech users of Python
>>
>> Hi Jamal,
>> While I appreciate the effort you put in to make this feature, I have
>> some
>> feedback. I use JAWS indentation scheme that plays notes for indent
>> levels. That scheme is very efficient for me because it plays the
>> notes
>> as
>> the lines are beginning to speak. That is more efficient than waiting
>> for
>> JAWS or EdSharp to tell me the indent level. Second, I think the
>> feature
>> needs to use spaces instead of tabs because that is the feedback I am
>> hearing from the Python Tutor list.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> James D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
>> james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810
>>
>> "Never doubt that a thoughtful group of committed citizens can change
>> the
>> world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Jamal Mazrui"
>> <empower@xxxxxxxx
>> t>
>> To
>> Sent by: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> programmingblind-
>> cc
>> bounce@freelists.
>> org
>> Subject
>> Seeking feedback from speech
>> users
>> of Python
>> 12/14/2007 10:36
>> PM
>>
>>
>> Please respond to
>> programmingblind@
>> freelists.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have included an experimental feature in EdSharp
>> http://www.EmpowermentZone.com/edsetup.exe
>>
>> In seeking a more efficient way of managing the indentation
>> requirement,
>> I
>> am trying a coding style called PyBrace, where the colon and indented
>> block are replaced by a set of curly braces surrounding the block.
>> Alt+Shift+LeftBracket (think of the brace character) turns either all
>> or
>> selected text into this style of code, which makes it easy to
>> understand
>> the structure with speech.
>>
>> The inverse command is called PyDent, Alt+LeftBracket, which converts
>> from
>> PyBrace format to the equivalent indentation required by the Python
>> interpreter.
>>
>> PyBrace assumes that the opening brace will be at the end of the line
>> of
>> text that starts the block, and the closing brace will be on a line by
>> itself. Also, PyDent assumes that a single tab character is used for
>> each
>> level of indentation -- though I intend to support other indentation
>> conventions as well if this approach seems productive.
>>
>> I have been able to convert to and from PyBrace and run a Python
>> script
>> successfully (the Python fruit basket program). If anyone else can
>> try
>> this approach, and let me know your results as well as any other ideas
>> for
>> improvement, that would be helpful.
>>
>> Jamal
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>
>>
>>
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