Re: Seeking feedback from speech users of Python
- From: james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:45:50 -0500
Hi Jamal,
For me, reading Python code on the web with indentation matters because
indentation matters in Python. It's also nice to have it preserved if I
want to paste some code from the web into a program. I don't have to go
through it and make sure the indentation is perfect. If I remember
correctly, the pre tag seems to work best with JAWS. I will try to be more
observant and report back.
Thanks.
Jim
James D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810
"Never doubt that a thoughtful group of committed citizens can change the
world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
"Jamal Mazrui"
<empower@xxxxxxxx
t> To
Sent by: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
programmingblind- cc
bounce@freelists.
org Subject
Re: Seeking feedback from speech
users of Python
12/17/2007 11:22
AM
Please respond to
programmingblind@
freelists.org
Hi Jim,
I'll be curious whether PyBrace makes more of a difference when you do
not have braille as an extra help with indentation.
Regarding the opening brace, I did not precede it with a space because I
noticed that Python code generally does not precede the colon with a
space. If you code in PyBrace style, however, it will still convert to
PyDent (with Alt+LeftBracket) if you use a preceding space.
Can you answer my question about Python code on web pages -- or can any
other Python programmers listening?
Jamal
On Mon, 17 Dec
2007 james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:17:31 -0500
> From: james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Seeking feedback from speech users of Python
>
> Hi Jamal,
> Since I am a braille user for things involving accuracy, I sort of depend
> on it to some degree for python. I will be starting to do Python at home.
I
> don't use braille there. I don't foresee an indentation problem there
> either though. Braille makes some things more convenient. Things like not
> having to arrow over so many characters when checking accuracy and being
> able to press cursor routing buttons to make the cursor jump to the exact
> cell where I want to input things. I've gotten used to feeling the
> indentations. That helps me section off things mentally.
>
> Regarding beeps and so on, my indentation scheme plays a door lock close
at
> level 0 and notes of the C major scale up to level 6. When the
indentation
> goes down by one note, I know that something above has closed. This, of
> course, assumes that I have indented my code properly. Since I usually
> write code and test it in little bits, I usually don't have a problem
with
> indentation compiler errors. That said, though, I will experiment with
the
> new feature to see what I think of it. Is it documented in the
> documentation file?
>
> Regarding spaces and tabs, I don't use tabs in EdSharp because EdSharp
> indents them using eight spaces. I would use them if I could control how
> many spaces they turned into. Then, at the end of my session, I would
> probably turn tabs into four spaces right before I distributed source
code,
> since that seems to be the preferred way of doing things. For braille,
> though, I might want it to go all the way down to one space if I could
get
> used to it. I like two right now though.
>
>
> James D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
> james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810
>
> "Never doubt that a thoughtful group of committed citizens can change the
> world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
>
>
>
>
> "Jamal Mazrui"
> <empower@xxxxxxxx
> t>
To
> Sent by: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> programmingblind-
cc
> bounce@freelists.
> org
Subject
> Re: Seeking feedback from speech
> users of Python
> 12/17/2007 08:56
> AM
>
>
> Please respond to
> programmingblind@
> freelists.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for the feedback, Jim.
>
> An advantage of PyBrace over beeps or words that indicate a change of
> indentation is that a comment is automatically generated that indicates
> what code block has closed. Thus, one does not have to recall that a
> "while" was two beeps in and and "if" was one beep.
>
> Yes, in EdSharp, Alt+Home goes to the first nonblank character of a line,
> and indeed, its purpose is to skip over indentation. Home without the
Alt
> modifier key is just easier and more habitual to press, and the purpose
of
> PyBrace is to maximize usability for a speech and keyboard user.
>
> Regarding space versus tab for indentation, does one work better when
JAWS
> displays a web page with the virtual buffer? Richard has reported that
> some Python code loses its indentation in this mode, whereas other
> indentation is preserved. Obviously, preserving it is important when
> reading Python code on the web. I was guessing that a tab character was
> more likely to be preserved than a space, so that was partly why I chose
> it ininitially, but I was guessing there. To me, tab also makes more
> sense logically because a single tab character can be used rather than
> multiple spaces, and the user can often adjust the display width of a tab
> character in his or her editor. I do recall, however, that Perl style
> guidelines recommend spaces (4) and Ruby's recommend them as well (2),
> so it does not surprise me that Python guidelines have developed
> similarly. I will probably make EdSharp use whatever the user has set
for
> the IndentationUnit in the configuration dialog.
>
> To what extent do you use braille when programming in Python?
>
> Jamal
> On Mon, 17 Dec 2007
> james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>
> > Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:37:57 -0500
> > From: james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: Seeking feedback from speech users of Python
> >
> > Hi Jamal,
> > While I appreciate the effort you put in to make this feature, I have
> some
> > feedback. I use JAWS indentation scheme that plays notes for indent
> > levels. That scheme is very efficient for me because it plays the notes
> as
> > the lines are beginning to speak. That is more efficient than waiting
for
> > JAWS or EdSharp to tell me the indent level. Second, I think the
feature
> > needs to use spaces instead of tabs because that is the feedback I am
> > hearing from the Python Tutor list.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > James D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
> > james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810
> >
> > "Never doubt that a thoughtful group of committed citizens can change
the
> > world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Jamal Mazrui"
> > <empower@xxxxxxxx
> > t>
> To
> > Sent by: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > programmingblind-
> cc
> > bounce@freelists.
> > org
> Subject
> > Seeking feedback from speech
users
> > of Python
> > 12/14/2007 10:36
> > PM
> >
> >
> > Please respond to
> > programmingblind@
> > freelists.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I have included an experimental feature in EdSharp
> > http://www.EmpowermentZone.com/edsetup.exe
> >
> > In seeking a more efficient way of managing the indentation
requirement,
> I
> > am trying a coding style called PyBrace, where the colon and indented
> > block are replaced by a set of curly braces surrounding the block.
> > Alt+Shift+LeftBracket (think of the brace character) turns either all
or
> > selected text into this style of code, which makes it easy to
understand
> > the structure with speech.
> >
> > The inverse command is called PyDent, Alt+LeftBracket, which converts
> from
> > PyBrace format to the equivalent indentation required by the Python
> > interpreter.
> >
> > PyBrace assumes that the opening brace will be at the end of the line
of
> > text that starts the block, and the closing brace will be on a line by
> > itself. Also, PyDent assumes that a single tab character is used for
> each
> > level of indentation -- though I intend to support other indentation
> > conventions as well if this approach seems productive.
> >
> > I have been able to convert to and from PyBrace and run a Python script
> > successfully (the Python fruit basket program). If anyone else can try
> > this approach, and let me know your results as well as any other ideas
> for
> > improvement, that would be helpful.
> >
> > Jamal
> >
> > __________
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> >
> >
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