[lit-ideas] Re: Traditionalist Islam

If you had looked around on the second website, or read the content of the  
first, or looked past the first line of the third, you would find that all 
three  discuss moderate Muslims IN the Middle East.
 
I didn't really have the inclination to pick out the "in the ME only"  
sentences/paragraphs, as I tend to believe context is important.  
 
I understand, however, why you don't have time to read such lengthy  pieces.  
I'll try to pare them down for you.
 
Julie Krueger

========Original  Message========     Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: Traditionalist 
Islam  Date: 2/26/2007 11:46:33 A.M. Central Standard Time  From: 
_lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx)   To: 
_lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)   Sent on:    
Notice what you quoted:  "I wasn't hearing  from any in the Middle East."  
You give me three web sites but none of them  are in the Middle East.  Yes, I 
know there are moderates outside of the  Middle East.  If they become Moderate 
they have to move out.  They go  to the Brookings Institute in Washington DC 
(your first web site).  They  became an assistant professor in a college in 
Michigan (your second web site),  or they become involved with the American 
Islamic Forum for Democracy (your  third web site).  They do not stay in the 
Middle 
East and write from  there.

Lawrence 




At 09:20 AM 2/26/2007, you wrote:

_http://www.ijtihad.org/moderatemuslims.htm_ 
(http://www.ijtihad.org/moderatemuslims.htm) 

_The Legacy of Muhammad and the issues  of Pedophilia and Polygamy_ 
(http://www.ijtihad.org/women2.htm)  

These are two interesting  articles from a Moderate Muslim perspective.  

And here's a  website you might take a look at:

_http://www.aifdemocracy.org/about/principles.php_ 
(http://www.aifdemocracy.org/about/principles.php) 

Julie  Krueger

======== Original Message======== 
Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: Traditionalist  Islam
Date: 2/25/2007 4:35:00 P.M. Central Standard Time
From: _lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx)  
To:  _lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) 
Sent  on:    

When I click on your reference I get Issue # 132  and don't see anything in 
it by Fukuyama.

The route you say I've chosen  is the one I've been on all along.  I started 
out believing all I was  hearing about the Traditional Muslims but one day 
realized that I wasn't  hearing from any in the Middle East; so right here on 
this very Lit-Ideas I  challenged Omar to produce some "moderate" aka 
traditional 
Muslims from he  Middle East, and he couldn't, or didn't have the time to 
look.  So I said  that I wasn't going to believe they existed until some were 
produced.  My  stance hasn't changed.  I said that deep down I think they do 
probably  exist, but did you read the rest of what I said, Simon?  In practical 
 
terms their existence is moot because they take no observable actions based  
upon their beliefs.  They don't write.  They don't speak out  politically.  In 
practical terms they may as well not exist.   

[Simon] I say back to you that the present actions of the west (by the  US 
and the UK for example), which for the most part are nothing but  verification 
of what the fundamentalists are saying the west would do,  preclude that 
possibility. More importantly, these actions serve to push more  and more 
traditionalists towards the fundamentalist camp.  

[Simon] Now I know this is something you disagree with. You (and  Eric) think 
that fundamentalist Islam is a product exclusively derived from  Muslim 
culture and a too tight reading of the Koran. You (and Eric) say that  the 
movement 
of muslims from the traditional fold to the fundamentalist is  something the 
west cannot influence. At least that's what you say over  here...

You haven't said enough for me to "disagree" or agree  with.  What "actions 
of the west" do you have in mind?  And how does  "verification of what the 
fundamentalists are saying" preclude the possibility  of the semi-mythical 
tradit
ionalists reaching out to us assuming they knew we  (Conservatives) existed -- 
and D'Souza says they don't know we exist.   D'Souza says it is the actions of 
the Cultural Left that antagonize the  Traditional Muslims.  They believe 
that we are all irreligious,  pro-abortion, pro-homosexual marriage, 
pro-sleeping 
around and a host of other  things that appall them.  They do not hold our 
taking out the Taliban and  Saddam Hussein against us.  They do not mind that 
we 
are fighting Al  Quaeda and the Baathists in Iraq.  But they hate what we are 
(read what  the Cultural Left is).  D'Souza says we should be more vocal, and 
become  visible to the Traditional Muslims.  Once they know we exist and 
share  Non-Leftist Cultural views with them we can take a common stance against 
 
Radical Islam (not to mention the Cultural Left)

Lawrence


At  01:04 PM 2/25/2007, you wrote:

Well Lawrence, I'm pleased that  you've chosen the interesting route.

I'd like to start with a  quote from you on Lit-Ideas, from the last post:

"...let me say  for the record that I believe the Traditionalists do  exist."

Now, just in case you have some intent to catch me out,  I hope we can agree 
that the 'traditionalists' you are referring to to are  the 'moderates' that 
we have discussed previously. We can? I'll assume that  to be the case.

In which case, I'd like to go back to something  I've been saying repeatedly: 
that the war being fought by the US and the  west (sometimes called the War 
Against Terror, other times otherthings), at  its heart, is a battle for the 
hearts and minds of the tradional muslim, for  the moderate. You say that their 
invisibility (in the middle east) means  that we are unable to reach out for 
them, but that they should reach out for  us. 

I say back to you that the present actions of the west (by  the US and the UK 
for example), which for the most part are nothing but  verification of what 
the fundamentlists are saying the west would do,  preclude that possibility. 
More importantly, these actions serve to push  more and more traditionalists 
towards the fundamentalist camp.  

Now I know this is something you disgree with. You (and Eric)  think that 
fundamentalist Islam is a product exclusively derived from muslim  culture and 
a 
too tight reading of the Koran. You (and Eric) say that the  movement of 
muslims from the traditional fold to the fundamentalist is  something the west 
cannot influence. At least that's what you say over  here...

[conflation...]

A few days ago I included  a link to an article by Fukuyama:

_http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/list.php?category=138&issue=549_ 
(http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/list.php?category=138&issue=549)   

I believe it's important and relates to the current  discussion. Perhaps you 
could read it and  comment.

Simon

----- Original Message -----  
From: _Lawrence Helm_ (mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx)   
To: _Lit-Ideas_ (mailto:Lit-Ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)   
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 8:28 PM  
Subject: [lit-ideas] Simon's peculiar responses


Simon writes:

There are, I've decided, two different Lawrences: one here and one in  
'another place'. Here, our Lawrence is unequivocal, the war is against  Islam 
because the moderates (or traditionalists) are 'semi mythical'. Over  there, 
their 
Lawrence appears to be nuanced and the moderates (or  traditionalists) are the 
ones that should be approached by western  scholars with a view to steering 
them away from the fundamentalists. 


Now this is interesting to say the least. Perhaps it's because  Lawrence is a 
hypocrite, or perhaps it's also because he's writing for a  different 
audience. Is it because in both places he's after an  argument?


And what does that make him?


Of course, he might just attempt to reconcile these two different  psyches. 
And that would be really interesting...



Lawrence reluctantly responds:

It goes without saying that you are once again confused, Simon.   

By "another place" I assume you mean Theoria where I discussed the  book The 
Enemy at Home, The Cultural Left and Its Responsibility for 9/11  by Dinesh 
D'Souza.  I might have discussed that book over here on  Lit-Ideas but I didn't 
because I had been declared SPAM for awhile.   Some of my comments about this 
book had to do with D'Souza's thesis that  it was better to fight against just 
the Islamic Radicals than all of  Islam.  The Right-Wing reviews I read of 
this book were uniformly  negative.  They objected to D'Souza's putting himself 
in the shoes of  the "Traditionalist" and looking for points of agreement.  He 
argues  the American Conservatives should seek out these traditionalists and 
make  common cause with them -- just as the Left and the Radical Muslims are  
making common cause.   My problem with the reviews is that none  of them I 
read seemed to think it would be a good thing if we could avoid  fighting all 
of 
Islam by making common cause with the  traditionalists.  If they exist, and 
D'Souza believes they do, then  it would be good if we could reach some sort of 
common-cause agreement  involving opposition to the radicals (and the Left).  
My point here,  and once again a smidgeon of understanding of Logic would help 
you, Simon,  is conditional.  If the traditionalists exist then it would be a 
good  thing if they and American conservatives could reach a rapprochement 
like  D'Souza suggest.  I do not have to believe or disbelieve that they  exist 
to make that conditional statement.   
But in one of my Theoria notes (one that you apparently missed), I  stated 
that I continued to believe the Traditionalists to be invisible and  that since 
we couldn't find them to reach out to, perhaps it would behoove  them, if they 
existed, to reach out to us.  

Lest that is too elusive for you, Simon, let me say for the record  that I 
believe the Traditionalists do exist.  I make disparaging  comments about them, 
calling them invisible and semi-mythical, because  they are not outspoken.  
They are not a present-day force in the  Middle East.  They keep silent.  If 
you 
called someone like that  to be a witness over here in the U.S.in, say, a 
drive-by shooting, he  would say, "I don't want to get involved."  Some Muslims 
are  courageous and they seem to have gravitated to the Radicals.  They  like 
to blow things up.  The uncourageous, the ones who would go to  Canada if they 
lived over here, tend to keep their mouths  shut.   D'Souza has a different 
view of them and I suspended  disbelief as I read his book (something his 
reviewers failed to do), but I  still wait to hear from them.  Where are they 
Dinesh?  And don't  point to Iranians living in Los Angeles or Arab Doctors 
working 
at Loma  Linda Hospital.  Where are they in the Middle East?  

Lawrence 





 
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