[lit-ideas] Re: Traditionalist Islam
- From: Omar Kusturica <omarkusto@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 02:36:57 -0800 (PST)
Lawrence,
Perhaps we could start by a rather commonplace move,
by taking a look at some of the ME newspapers. Granted
that most of these newspapers are to a greater or
lesser extent controlled by the local regimes, still
the people whro write in them are real people. Would
these people not count as moderates in your opinion,
and if not, why ? I am not asking this question
because I especially seek to promote these people or
these newspapers (Daily Star is probably the best) but
because I would like to understand what you mean when
you demand that we produce 'moderates.' O.K.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/
http://english.daralhayat.com/
http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/
http://www.cairotimes.com/
http://www.jordantimes.com/
http://www.arabnews.com/
http://www.gulf-news.com
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk
http://www.metimes.com/
--- Lawrence Helm <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I read them. The only one that speaks about
> Moderate Muslims in the
> Middle East is the first article and the only
> mention of a Moderate
> Muslim speaking out in the Middle East is Khatami
> who was replaced by
> Ahmadinejad. I've read several articles about
> Khatami in the past
> and some people hoped he was moderate but others
> found him engaged in
> some extremely immoderate behavior. His past was
> immoderate. And
> now he is out of office and apparently not speaking
> out.
>
> Why just plunk this stuff down here and expect me to
> develop your
> argument? If you think they are
> self-authenticating, they
> aren't. Where are the Moderate Muslims speaking out
> from inside the
> Middle East? I don't think your articles provide
> any? If you
> disagree, let's hear it.
>
> I have heard plenty of assertions that there are
> Traditionalists in
> the Middle East as I said, but as I also said, I
> discovered that I
> wasn't seeing any evidence of Traditionalists or
> Moderates writing or
> speaking out from within the Middle East. Now in
> past discussions we
> of course excluded Muslims from Afghanistan and Iraq
> for obvious
> reasons. We also excluded Muslim areas outside of
> the Middle East
> like India, and I found that the most outspoke and
> moderate were
> right here in the USA where it was safe to be
> Moderate and speak out.
>
> During past discussions with Omar we discovered an
> outspoken fellow
> from Iran. Perhaps he was the person who broke the
> rule, but no, he
> was hounded out of Iran; although he went back from
> time to time when
> he thought he could get away with it -- especially
> during the Khatami regime.
>
> There is also an Egyptian novelist who seems to
> present a moderate
> position in his novels, but he has been abused,
> attacked, and the
> last I heard was being tried for something like
> heresy. I have one
> of his novels lying about some place but I can't
> remember where. I
> haven't heard how his trial came out. This
> novelist by the way has
> argued that his novels do conform to strict
> sharia-law-type thinking,
> but his attackers don't believe him.
>
> I keep hearing about political trouble in Iran,
> about Iranians who
> oppose the policies of Ahmadinejad. There were the
> students who
> opposed the repressive actions of the Mullahs and
> their policies, but
> they were suppressed. I've read articles that claim
> there is
> something going on in Iran once again, and the
> Ahmadinejad regime and
> the Mullahs behind him may all come tumbling down,
> but that may just
> be the same old wishful thinking.
>
> The Middle East is not a place where freedom of
> thought and speech
> are encouraged. Beyond that the Fundamentalists
> suppress or seek to
> suppress those whose views are not as strict as
> theirs, people who
> might approximate the definition of a moderate, and
> their violence is
> persuasive.
>
> Lawrence
>
>
>
> At 08:48 PM 2/26/2007, you wrote:
> >If you had looked around on the second website, or
> read the content
> >of the first, or looked past the first line of the
> third, you would
> >find that all three discuss moderate Muslims IN the
> Middle East.
> >
> >I didn't really have the inclination to pick out
> the "in the ME
> >only" sentences/paragraphs, as I tend to believe
> context is important.
> >
> >I understand, however, why you don't have time to
> read such lengthy
> >pieces. I'll try to pare them down for you.
> >
> >Julie Krueger
> >
> >========Original Message========
> >Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: Traditionalist Islam
> >Date: 2/26/2007 11:46:33 A.M. Central Standard Time
> >From:
>
<mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> >To:
>
<mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Sent on:
> >
> >Notice what you quoted: "I wasn't hearing from any
> in the Middle
> >East." You give me three web sites but none of
> them are in the
> >Middle East. Yes, I know there are moderates
> outside of the Middle
> >East. If they become Moderate they have to move
> out. They go to
> >the Brookings Institute in Washington DC (your
> first web
> >site). They became an assistant professor in a
> college in Michigan
> >(your second web site), or they become involved
> with the American
> >Islamic Forum for Democracy (your third web site).
> They do not stay
> >in the Middle East and write from there.
> >
> >Lawrence
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >At 09:20 AM 2/26/2007, you wrote:
>
>><http://www.ijtihad.org/moderatemuslims.htm>http://www.ijtihad.org/moderatemuslims.htm
> >>
> >><http://www.ijtihad.org/women2.htm>The Legacy of
> Muhammad and the
> >>issues of Pedophilia and Polygamy
> >>
> >>These are two interesting articles from a Moderate
> Muslim perspective.
> >>
> >>And here's a website you might take a look at:
> >>
>
>><http://www.aifdemocracy.org/about/principles.php>http://www.aifdemocracy.org/about/principles.php
> >>
> >>Julie Krueger
> >>
> >>======== Original Message========
> >>Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: Traditionalist Islam
> >>Date: 2/25/2007 4:35:00 P.M. Central Standard Time
> >>From:
>
<mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>To:
>
<mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>Sent on:
> >>
> >>When I click on your reference I get Issue # 132
> and don't see
> >>anything in it by Fukuyama.
> >>
> >>The route you say I've chosen is the one I've been
> on all along. I
> >>started out believing all I was hearing about the
> Traditional
> >>Muslims but one day realized that I wasn't hearing
> from any in the
> >>Middle East; so right here on this very Lit-Ideas
> I challenged Omar
> >>to produce some "moderate" aka traditional Muslims
> from he Middle
> >>East, and he couldn't, or didn't have the time to
> look. So I said
> >>that I wasn't going to believe they existed until
> some were
> >>produced. My stance hasn't changed. I said that
> deep down I think
> >>they do probably exist, but did you read the rest
> of what I said,
> >>Simon? In practical terms their existence is moot
> because they
> >>take no observable actions based upon their
> beliefs. They don't
> >>write. They don't speak out politically. In
> practical terms they
> >>may as well not exist.
> >>
> >>[Simon] I say back to you that the present actions
> of the west (by
> >>the US and the UK for example), which for the most
> part are nothing
> >>but verification of what the fundamentalists are
> saying the west
> >>would do, preclude that possibility. More
> importantly, these
> >>actions serve to push more and more
> traditionalists towards the
> >>fundamentalist camp.
> >>
> >>[Simon] Now I know this is something you disagree
> with. You (and
> >>Eric) think that fundamentalist Islam is a product
> exclusively
> >>derived from Muslim culture and a too tight
> reading of the Koran.
> >>You (and Eric) say that the movement of muslims
> from the
> >>traditional fold to the fundamentalist is
> something the west cannot
> >>influence. At least that's what you say over
> here...
> >>
> >>You haven't said enough for me to "disagree" or
> agree with. What
> >>"actions of the west" do you have in mind? And
> how does
> >>"verification of what the fundamentalists are
> saying" preclude the
> >>possibility of the semi-mythical traditionalists
> reaching out to us
> >>assuming they knew we (Conservatives) existed --
> and D'Souza says
> >>they don't know we exist. D'Souza says it is the
> actions of the
> >>Cultural Left that antagonize the Traditional
> Muslims. They
> >>believe that we are all irreligious, pro-abortion,
> pro-homosexual
> >>marriage, pro-sleeping around and a host of other
> things that
> >>appall them. They do not hold our taking out the
> Taliban and
> >>Saddam Hussein against us. They do not mind that
> we are fighting
> >>Al Quaeda and the Baathists in Iraq. But they
> hate what we are
> >>(read what the Cultural Left is). D'Souza says we
> should be more
> >>vocal, and become visible to the Traditional
> Muslims. Once they
> >>know we exist and share Non-Leftist Cultural views
> with them we can
> >>take a common stance against Radical Islam (not to
> mention the Cultural Left)
> >>
> >>Lawrence
> >>
> >>
> >>At 01:04 PM 2/25/2007, you wrote:
> >>>Well Lawrence, I'm pleased that you've chosen the
> interesting route.
> >>>
> >>>I'd like to start with a quote from you on
> Lit-Ideas, from the last post:
> >>>
> >>>"...let me say for the record that I believe the
> Traditionalists do exist."
> >>>
> >>>Now, just in case you have some intent to catch
> me out, I hope we
> >>>can agree that the 'traditionalists' you are
> referring to to are
> >>>the 'moderates' that we have discussed
> previously. We can? I'll
> >>>assume that to be the case.
> >>>
> >>>In which case, I'd like to go back to something
> I've been saying
> >>>repeatedly: that the war being fought by the US
> and the west
> >>>(sometimes called the War Against Terror, other
> times
> >>>otherthings), at its heart, is a battle for the
> hearts and minds
> >>>of the tradional muslim, for the moderate. You
> say that their
> >>>invisibility (in the middle east) means that we
> are unable to
> >>>reach out for them, but that they should reach
> out for us.
> >>>
> >>>I say back to you that the present actions of the
> west (by the US
> >>>and the UK for example), which for the most part
> are nothing but
> >>>verification of what the fundamentlists are
> saying the west would
> >>>do, preclude that possibility. More importantly,
> these actions
> >>>serve to push more and more traditionalists
> towards the fundamentalist camp.
> >>>
> >>>Now I know this is something you disgree with.
> You (and Eric)
> >>>think that fundamentalist Islam is a product
> exclusively derived
> >>>from muslim culture and a too tight reading of
> the Koran. You (and
> >>>Eric) say that the movement of muslims from the
> traditional fold
> >>>to the fundamentalist is something the west
> cannot influence. At
> >>>least that's what you say over here...
> >>>
> >>>[conflation...]
> >>>
> >>>A few days ago I included a link to an article by
> Fukuyama:
> >>>
>
>>><http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/list.php?category=138&issue=549>http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/list.php?category=138&issue=549
>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I believe it's important and relates to the
> current discussion.
> >>>Perhaps you could read it and comment.
> >>>
> >>>Simon
> >>>
> >>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>From: <mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>Lawrence
> Helm
> >>>To: <mailto:Lit-Ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>Lit-Ideas
> >>>Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 8:28 PM
> >>>Subject: [lit-ideas] Simon's peculiar responses
> >>>
> >>>Simon writes:
> >>>There are, I've decided, two different Lawrences:
> one here and one
> >>>in 'another place'. Here, our Lawrence is
> unequivocal, the war is
> >>>against Islam because the moderates (or
> traditionalists) are 'semi
> >>>mythical'. Over there, their Lawrence appears to
> be nuanced and
> >>>the moderates (or traditionalists) are the ones
> that should be
> >>>approached by western scholars with a view to
> steering them away
> >>>from the fundamentalists.
> >>>Now this is interesting to say the least. Perhaps
> it's because
> >>>Lawrence is a hypocrite, or perhaps it's also
> because he's writing
> >>>for a different audience. Is it because in both
> places he's after an argument?
> >>>And what does that make him?
> >>>Of course, he might just attempt to reconcile
> these two different
> >>>psyches. And that would be really interesting...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Lawrence reluctantly responds:
> >>>It goes without saying that you are once again
> confused, Simon.
> >>>By "another place" I assume you mean Theoria
> where I discussed the
> >>>book The Enemy at Home, The Cultural Left and Its
> Responsibility
> >>>for 9/11 by Dinesh D'Souza. I might have
> discussed that book over
> >>>here on Lit-Ideas but I didn't because I had been
> declared SPAM
> >>>for awhile. Some of my comments about this book
> had to do with
> >>>D'Souza's thesis that it was better to fight
> against just the
> >>>Islamic Radicals than all of Islam. The
> Right-Wing reviews I read
> >>>of this book were uniformly negative. They
> objected to D'Souza's
> >>>putting himself in the shoes of the
> "Traditionalist" and looking
> >>>for points of agreement. He argues the American
> Conservatives
> >>>should seek out these traditionalists and make
> common cause with
> >>>them -- just as the Left and the Radical Muslims
> are making common
> >>>cause. My problem with the reviews is that none
> of them I read
> >>>seemed to think it would be a good thing if we
> could avoid
> >>>fighting all of Islam by making common cause with
> the
> >>>traditionalists. If they exist, and D'Souza
> believes they do,
> >>>then it would be good if we could reach some sort
> of common-cause
> >>>agreement involving opposition to the radicals
> (and the Left). My
> >>>point here, and once again a smidgeon of
> understanding of Logic
> >>>would help you, Simon, is conditional. If the
> traditionalists
> >>>exist then it would be a good thing if they and
> American
> >>>conservatives could reach a rapprochement like
> D'Souza suggest. I
> >>>do not have to believe or disbelieve that they
> exist to make that
> >>>conditional statement.
> >>>But in one of my Theoria notes (one that you
> apparently missed), I
> >>>stated that I continued to believe the
> Traditionalists to be
> >>>invisible and that since we couldn't find them to
> reach out to,
> >>>perhaps it would behoove them, if they existed,
> to reach out to us.
> >>>Lest that is too elusive for you, Simon, let me
> say for the record
> >>>that I believe the Traditionalists do exist. I
> make disparaging
> >>>comments about them, calling them invisible and
> semi-mythical,
> >>>because they are not outspoken. They are not a
> present-day force
> >>>in the Middle East. They keep silent. If you
> called someone like
> >>>that to be a witness over here in the U.S.in,
> say, a drive-by
> >>>shooting, he would say, "I don't want to get
> involved." Some
> >>>Muslims are courageous and they seem to have
> gravitated to the
> >>>Radicals. They like to blow things up. The
> uncourageous, the
> >>>ones who would go to Canada if they lived over
> here, tend to keep
> >>>their mouths shut. D'Souza has a different view
> of them and I
> >>>suspended disbelief as I read his book (something
> his reviewers
> >>>failed to do), but I still wait to hear from
> them. Where are they
> >>>Dinesh? And don't point to Iranians living in
> Los Angeles or Arab
> >>>Doctors working at Loma Linda Hospital. Where
> are they in the Middle East?
> >>>Lawrence
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>----------
> >>AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out
> more about what's
> >>free from AOL at
>
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>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----------
> >AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out
> more about what's
> >free from AOL at
>
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>
> >
>
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