As I said elsewhere, Osama bin Laden and the Islamists understand how important Iraq is. They are opposing us there with all they have. It is complicated, but I could refer you to several books on the matter if you are interested. For example, the founder of Stratfor, the private organization that provides Intelligence info to companies and other interested in international affairs, George Friedman in America's Secret War, Inside the Hidden Worldwide Struggle between America and its Enemies, describes how the removal of Saddam's regime was important in the war against the Islamists. See also, Kennet Pollack's The Treatening Storm, the Case for Invading Iraq., The Reckoning, Iraq and the Legacy of Saddam Hussein by Sandra Mackey, and The Pentagon's New Map, War and Peace in the Twenty-First Century by Thomas Barnett. Lawrence _____ From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Andy Amago Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 6:50 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape The Islamists hate us. Iraq has no Islamists. We invade Iraq. Iraq becomes flooded with Islamists and we're into a trillion dollar war with no way out. Those are living non-sequiturs, but who cares about that, right? I give up talking to you Lawrence. I'm out to get my own personal windmill and tilt against it, hope the Islamists go away. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence <mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Helm To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: 1/20/2006 9:40:29 PM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape Hi John. Okay, lets clean this up a bit. It would be a valid argument to say that the Islamists do not intend to conquer us and therefore we shouldnt be attacking them. However, I dont believe you can produce the evidence to support such an argument. Not only do the writings of Sayyid Qutb and Ruhollah Khomeini (the main Sunni and Shiite Islamist ideologues) advocate such an attack, the followers of these ideologues are actively engaged in carrying out these attacks. Also, I dont think you are correct in your argument that the Islamist insurgents represent Iraq. Well over 70% of Iraqis showed up to vote in the last election indicating that they favor a democratic government and not the Islamist insurgents. We are viewed as liberators by those who want democracy (the bulk of the Iraqis). We are viewed as conquerors by the fascist Islamists. We have freed Iraq from a brutal dictator. We are encouraging the development of democracy in Iraq. We will leave when this new government can handle its own insurgents. Who says we are conquerors? The Islamists and anti-Americans. Who says we are liberators? The people favoring democracy in Iraq. You spoke of evidence. Over the years I have produced evidence in copious and sometimes objectionable quantities. I have been known to challenge those who argue with me to produce evidence to support their arguments. Do you have evidence to show that the Islamists arent attacking us? Do have evidence that the Islamists have not declared war against us? Do you have evidence that the Islamists and other insurgents represent the will of the majority in Iraq? Lawrence -----Original Message----- From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John McCreery Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 6:15 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape Hi, Lawrence. Good to see you here. I'll even agree that we need to oppose those who want to conquer us. Problem No. 1 is that, at this point, the evidence is all on the side of we want to conquer them and not vice versa. We proclaim our good intentions, but, hey, so do they. They say that they will attack us until we are off what they see as their turf. They commit terrorist acts (which I in no way condone) to demonstrate their seriousness; but, when push comes to shove, we are the ones with armies invading and occupying other countries. What was it Christ said? The bit about the beam in one's own eye before the mote in the other guys? Not to mention turning the cheek and loving them that hate you? John John McCreery The Word Works, Ltd. 55-13-202 Miyagaya, Nishi-ku Yokohama 220-0006, JAPAN ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html