[lit-ideas] Re: Reason and Politics
- From: "Steve Chilson" <stevechilson@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 05:40:52 +0100
Apologies for the lack of clarity Walter, having left too much to infer.
By the "belief in democracy", I was referring to democratic theorists
and the ideals which they appear to be attempting to export over this
last decade in particular; that democracy is the miracle cure for any
society's ills regardless of that society's culture and history. By
truth and righteousness creating fire in the souls, I'm (obviously only
attempting and without particular success) to convey western politicians
and similar democratic theorists waving a magic wand of "democracy" over
a country the same way that strikes me as not dissimilar from American
politicians making statements along the lines that by believing in
Jesus, for example, they will be morally more substantive people. My
own murky claim, clearly well-hidden between the lines (too much so
perhaps,) was that calls for more belief in democracy/more exportation
of their democratic theories are similar to calls for the exportation of
more belief in religion from one misguided soul to another in that of
late, they would to some, appear to be substantiated more by killing or
dying for rather than by the deeds of being democractic or the by acting
with moral substance themselves. The last line suggests in an equally
well-cloaked manner that feeding people should be the concern of society
not the exportation of democratic or religious ideals. Again, apologies
for the abstraction of the lines themselves not, of course, of the
author of those lines :)
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 17:16:49 -0230, wokshevs@xxxxxx said:
> Steve's post below opens by asking a potentially interesting but poorly
> formulated question. He then loses me completely in the subsequent
> sentences.
> Staying with that opening question for the moment, I think it's important
> to
> specify somewhat the idea or criterion of "more important" before
> venturing
> answers. Steve seems to assume the notion is somehow self-evident. Or
> that it
> is unpacked by the subsequent sentences. I do not think it is. Others may
> disagree of course. Steve, could you help out here? Perhaps it would also
> help
> if you could unpack what you take to be involved in "the belief in
> democracy."
> By "the" is it that you believe there is only one possible belief, or one
> legitimate belief, concerning democracy? As if anyone supporting
> democracy as a
> form of governance would necessarily have that belief?
>
> And I completely agree with your maxim not to talk bullshit or political
> correctness simply for the sake of political correctness.
>
> Walter C. Okshevsky
> Memorial University
>
>
>
> Quoting Steve Chilson <stevechilson@xxxxxxxxxxx>:
>
> > what is more important - the belief in religion or the belief in
> > democracy?
> >
> > Let's not talk bullshit or political correct.
> >
> > Truth and righteousness are words that create fire in souls but they
> > have no real meaning.
> >
> > the belief in nothing; that is the belief in religion and the belief in
> > democracy.
> >
> > Will I kill a man for my freedom? Will I kill a man for my god? Will I
> > kill a man for bread?
> >
> > Those are the questions.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 16:49:56 -0230, wokshevs@xxxxxx said:
> > > I don't think the issue here is a matter of the tenets of a religion.
> > > Democracy
> > > as a political system, and rationality as a system of universal
> > > imperatives,
> > > are obligated to disregard the truth or rightness of any religious view.
> > > The
> > > question for your account is really how and whether Enlightenment values
> > > of
> > > benefit maximization (or any other E. value, for that matter) can
> > > legitimately
> > > trump the right to religious expression in a pluralist democracy where
> > > freedom
> > > of religion is a charter or constitutional right. "Successful pluralism"
> > > surely
> > > involves a fair system of cooperation between all cultural and religious
> > > groups
> > > in which the rights of all are protected. I'm not clear on how the
> > > preservation
> > > of any one right can be "a subsidiary goal" to the preservation of other
> > > rights.
> > >
> > > Walter Okshevsky
> > > Memorial U.
> > >
> > > Quoting Eric Yost <eyost1132@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> > >
> > > > >>Suppose someone were to aver: 'There is no true freedom
> > > > of religion in a democracy if there is no freedom to burn
> > > > heretics and apostates as required by our religion.' What
> > > > would the proper response be to such a claim?"
> > > >
> > > > And why were Satanists overlooked in Bush's so-called
> > > > faith-based initiatives? Surely they could have run a soup
> > > > kitchen between animal sacrifices.
> > > >
> > > > Suppose the answer is that in a liberal democracy,
> > > > Enlightenment values of maximum happiness overrule the
> > > > tenets of any particular religion? The highest goal being
> > > > successful pluralism -- goals subsidiary to that being
> > > > freedom of religion, speech, usw.
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off,
> > > > digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off,
> > > digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html
> > --
> > Steve Chilson
> > stevechilson@xxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > --
> > http://www.fastmail.fm - Faster than the air-speed velocity of an
> > unladen european swallow
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off,
> > digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off,
> digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html
--
Steve Chilson
stevechilson@xxxxxxxxxxx
--
http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service
------------------------------------------------------------------
To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off,
digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html
Other related posts:
