I believe that numbers are mental phenomena. Basic, fundamental units of perception, with no existence outside of the mind. I am familiar with Plato, whose influence is inescapable, and aware of the view, held my many throughout the ages, which says that numbers exist somewhere in a realm of Platonic forms. However, I do not regard Platonic forms as a comprehensible concept, or as any kind of understandable "space" where things like "numbers" reside, or belong. I regard it more as an elaborate metaphor or mystical concept which is impossible to pin down or understand--a religious concept in a way. I also studied mathematics for many years as a student, and am familiar with the universality of mathematical "law", which exists independent of the observer. Nevertheless, I think that in a world with no people, in a lifeless universe, there would exist no idea of "number". Numbers are first grasped by young children, who see (hear, etc) objects appear and dissapear in their field of perception, and name that appearing and disappearing by various names, "one" "two", "ten" etc. Therefore, I think that numbers are phenomena of cognition and do not exist in the physical world; they are rather ways of ordering and understanding the world. And the most fundamental distinction is that between presence and absence, conceptualized by the 1 (one) and the 0 (zero). I think that everything conceptual, every idea, starts from that distinction. Alex Trifan/ Boston ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html