[lit-ideas] Re: Movie
- From: "Andy Amago" <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "lit-ideas" <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:44:03 -0400
> [Original Message]
> From: Walter Okshevsky <wokshevs@xxxxxx>
> To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 8/31/2006 9:27:58 AM
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Movie
>
> Andrey,
>
> Russian seems to be a very odd language.
I don't know what you mean. It's not odd at all. It's got rules like any
language, and it follows them without caprice. It's a beautiful language.
Why have a soft "t" in the
> language when the 24th letter of the Russian alphabet is exactly the same
> sound/phoneme: "ts" as in "tsar" or "tsapnul" (snapped)? It's written like
> the Englisch "u" with a squiggle at the bottom right side.
The u with the squiggle on the bottom is a completely different letter,
pronounced as 'ts'. At the end of a word it doesn't have the same sound as
a t with a soft sign. It's got a distinct s sound on it. It would be like
saying why does English need an 'x' since we have the ks sound, or 's' and
'c' have the same sound sometimes. 'ts' is rarely, if ever, used at the
end of an infinitive. It doesn't even start that many words. Tselii
(whole) comes to mind, tselobat' (to kiss).
I thought the
> Soviets eliminated all forms of redundancy from the culture and
> governement.
Not sure about that. They eliminated the "hard sign", a now archaic
letter. You'll find it in 19th century literature. Also not seen anymore
are the two dots over the 'e' that make the yio sound. Beyond that, I
don't think there were a lot of changes, but I'm open to correction.
Also odd is that there is a soft "r" in Russian
> (as in "tsar" but not "rabota" or "razboynik") but it is not marked in the
> language by either a soft sign or any other marker. Any hypotheses?
Tsar does have a soft sign, making it a soft 'r'. 'Rabota' is a hard r;
all r's in Russian are rolled, like in Spanish. In English r's are
diphthong; our r's have a vowel sound attached to them.
> Aren't languages supposed to be logical semantic and syntactic
> frameworks? Like Phoenix, AZ?
It is logical, organized, sensible.
Strana Mariyevana, chay pila a puza
> holodnaya. Do all Russian infinitives end with a soft "t"?
>
Strana Mariyevana (someone's name I guess) drank tea but her belly was
cold. Reference? Yes, all, or nearly all infinitives end in a soft 't'.
It's the Russian equivalent of the English 'to' (to drink, etc.). There's
also a 'ch' ending, such as in pech'" (to bake) also followed by a soft
sign.
> Valodsya von Odessa
>
>
> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006, Andy Amago wrote:
>
> > The 't' in nyet is distinctly hard. The 't' in mat' (mother) is
distinctly
> > soft. So soft, in fact, that it's followed by a soft sign,
transliterated
> > with an apostrophe: mat'. Ubit' is followed by a soft sign, because
it's
> > an infinitive. It's therefore a soft 't'.
> >
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: <wokshevs@xxxxxx>
> > > To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; Mike Geary <atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Date: 8/29/2006 2:51:45 PM
> > > Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Movie
> > >
> > > Gospodsi bozhimoy, pomiluy nas! There's obviously only one Russian
ear on
> > this
> > > List. (Yes, I'm deaf in one ear.) None of the offered hypotheses on
> > phonetics
> > > or transliteration are correct. There is no soft "t" in Russian,
there is
> > only
> > > one "t," as in "Tanya" or "Toronto." The purportedly soft "t" is a
> > completely
> > > different letter. And that is the letter in the Russian infinitive "to
> > kill."
> > > (And we won't even mention the Russian soft "r" as in "tsarina.")
> > >
> > > Valodsya Akshevsky
> > > Zhivago Chair of Translation and Interpretation Sciences
> > > University of Lower Odessa, Rossia
> > >
> > > Quoting Mike Geary <atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> > >
> > > > > For Paul, tsar is closer to the pronunciation. It's ts like the
ts
> > in tsk
> > > > > tsk, with a soft rolled r at the end.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Interesting. I've always wondered how to pronounce "tsk tsk." You
> > seem to
> > > > say it's /ts, ts/. Almost all the dictionaries I've consulted say
the
> > > > pronunciation is /tisk tisk/. I've never ever heard anyone say
"tisk
> > tisk"
> > > > in disapproval or in any other circumstance. Nor have I ever heard
/ts
> > ts/.
> > > >
> > > > I have often heard people make a sound of disapproval by quickly
> > withdrawing
> > > >
> > > > their tongue from their upper gum ridge which produces a sucking
> > liquidy
> > > > sound -- almost a /th/ sound in reverse. Are there people who
really
> > say
> > > > "tisk tisk"? Or is that just the orthographic convention for the
> > reverse
> > > > th?
> > > >
> > > > Mike Geary
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Andy Amago" <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > To: "lit-ideas" <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 3:50 PM
> > > > Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Movie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >I heard him interviewed. He's basically says nothing with power
point
> > > > > razzle dazzle. Better than bad news all the time I guess.
> > > > >
> > > > > As far as self mastery, I never said self mastery. That's
> > antithetical to
> > > > > everything I believe in. I believe in expressing emotions but
doing
> > it
> > > > > such that no one gets hurt (certainly not to include war or
> > variations on
> > > > > war) and far from the madding crowd. The point is training the
> > emotions
> > > > > through appropriate expression, not mastery. Self mastery sounds
to
> > me
> > > > > like turning one's self into a pressure cooker. Good luck.
> > > > >
> > > > > For Julie, yeah, we do live in a three dimensional world but we
have
> > two
> > > > > dimensional brains. The tension between those states results in
war,
> > > > > persecution, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > Russia never had a king, only tsars.
> > > > > Tsar (alternatively czar, csar, tzar) is derivative of Caesar.
> > > > >
> > > > > Eric, check this out. Everything's hunky dory in Iraq, except the
> > Shiite
> > > > > militias are fighting the Iraqi troops, otherwise known as the
> > government.
> > > > > Think that sounds like civil war? Nah, I didn't think so.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5293278.stm
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> [Original Message]
> > > > >> From: Eric Yost <eyost1132@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > >> To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > >> Date: 8/28/2006 1:38:50 PM
> > > > >> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Movie
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Irene: We replay on this list what happened; reality is
> > > > >> reported to you, you get mad not at the reality or the
> > > > >> perpetrator of the reality, but at the messenger.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Obviously I don't believe you are reporting reality, but a
> > > > >> sort of alarmist fiction that admits no correction. You may
> > > > >> think I am also fabulating just as stubbornly. However, you
> > > > >> seem to linger on past policy mistakes, rather than look
> > > > >> forward to new developments, in support of your view that
> > > > >> the sky is falling.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Try reading _The Pentagon's New Map_ by Thomas P.M. Barnett,
> > > > >> for a less alarmist take on events. He's pro-globalism and
> > > > >> uses an information paradigm, probably has other limitations
> > > > >> I'm not aware of, but his is a refreshing perspective. You
> > > > >> can buy his book here:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0399151753/104-6947401-6419119?v=glance&n=2
> > > > > 83155
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
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