Andy Amago is confused about a number of things. First, a 'self-evident truth' is, literally, what is true by its own evidence. It is not true because of experience though experience is usually necessary to perceive what is self-evident. I would think it a common-sense reading of the DOI that the truths given therein are not taken to be pragmatic, that is, what works, but timeless and enduring. Andy would have it both ways though. Andy would have 'what works' be a self-evident truth. This is nonsense because 'what works' is never the same thing all the time. So, Andy must either give up the idea of a self-evident truth or he must account for such truth in terms other than 'what works'. Since Andy doesn't allow for an 'inner' moral law, he must give up the idea of a self-evident truth, which puts him in conflict with both the framers of the DOI and the DOI itself. Andy is also confused about what constitutes moral activity. What else is 'all men created equal' except a moral assertion regarding how all men are to be treated? Now, one could argue that there is no such thing as morality but Andy has already allowed for a moral law, just not an 'inner' moral law. So, Andy recognizes moral activity but apparently such activity has nothing to do with how people are to be treated nor how we are to go about living our lives. This is nonsense because morality is about how we treat each other and how we go about living our lives. The particular example Andy referred to was that of the pursuit of happiness. According to Andy, happiness is just a goal, not necessarily a moral goal. I suppose according to some contorted definition this might be true, but if happiness is a kind of harmonious living with oneself, one's fellow human beings and the world, and morality is about one's having right relations, then happiness is a moral goal. It is nonsense to claim that happiness is not a moral goal. A third confusion found in Andy's comments is that since standards of morality change over time, morality itself is relative. This, too, is nonsense. People can share the moral conviction that doing harm to another is wrong while disagreeing on the finer details of how this conviction might be applied in daily life. This disagreement does not mean that they don't share the same conviction. Rather, in the vast majority of cases, people agree on what is right and what is wrong. One way of accounting for this agreement is the presence of an 'inner' moral law. Practices may differ, and people may not live up to their convictions, but this does not negate the fact that there is agreement to such an extent that we can be offended by the actions of people who are separated from us both by culture and by time. Here we see the nonsense of Andy's position: if morality is as relative as Andy would have it be, then who is he to be offended by the actions of others? How can the executives of pharma be judged according to Andy's standards except that they be standards for all? Who is Andy to make judgments about the beliefs of religious folks except that he shares in a common understanding? How could such judgments be meaningful, much less justified, except according to a standard common to all those Andy is critical of? And what is this common standard except an 'inner' moral law? In other words, Andy, in all his handwaving regarding the human species, affirms the 'inner' moral law while claiming that such a thing can only be 'alleged'. Sincerely, Phil Enns Toronto, ON ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html