Le 24 ao=FBt 04, =E0 23:49, Mike Geary a =E9crit : > Thank you, JL. When philosophers start talking about 'form' or=20 > 'substance' > or 'accidents', etc. I get squirrelly. I'm never sure just what=20 > they're > talking about. And it has seemed to me that every philosopher means > something just a little bit different by the terms. Hence the history=20= > of > philosophy. My first instinct is to say, well, they're the=20 > philosophers, > they should know, and then hit myself on the head with a hammer hoping=20= > for > enlightenment. Philosophy is as complicated as physics, I know, and a=20= > hell > of a lot older with more subject matter to be mastered so why should I > expect to know what philosophers are talking about any more than what > physicists are talking about without having devoted years to studying=20= > them? > Why? I don't know why. But, in fact, I do expect that philosophy=20 > should be > self-evidently accessible to. And I think I do know why. It's=20 > because I > think Philosophy is about why we live, something that arises more out=20= > of the > experiences of my life than through the experiences of others. I=20 > think I'm > as much a philosopher as anyone, and I suspect every taxi driver, = ditch > digger, CEO and movie star thinks the same. To most of us, I contend, > philosophy is the sense we make of our own lives. But that's=20 > certainly not > what the academic study of the canon of thinkers identified as=20 > philosophers > is all about. Now if Mike Chase wants to argue that philosophy should=20= > not > be confined to the stagnant bays of Marsh's Library, I would tend to=20= > agree > with him -- generally. But it seems to me that there is a difference > between, say poetry and philosophy. Take Wallace Steven's stanza=20 > from _Le > Monocle De Mon Oncle_. > > VII > > The mules that angels ride come slowly down > The blazing passes, from beyond the sun. > Descensions of their tinkling bells arrive. > These muleteers are dainty of their way. > Meantime, centurions guffaw and beat > Their shrilling tankards on the table-boards. > This parable, in sense, amounts to this: > The honey of heaven may or may not come, > But that of earth both comes and goes at once. > Suppose these couriers brought amid their train > A damsel heightened by eternal bloom. > > Is this poetry or philosophy? Or both? It's obviously not history. > Psychology maybe? It may be of interest to psychologists, but it's > certainly not psychology. Literay Studies has fun with it, and, from=20= > my > persepective, Literary Studies is closer to philosophy than poetry. =20= > The > passage asks questions about the nature of reality, but only as=20 > literature > can, I think -- does Mike Chase say this passage (not to mention the=20= > entire > poem) qualifies as philosophy as much as poetry? M.C. I dunno, maybe. Compare Wittgenstein, in 1933 : Ich glaube meine Stellung zur Philosophie dadurch = zusammengefasst zu=20 haben, indem ich sagte=A0: Philosophie duerfte man eigentlich nur=20 *dichten*. Daraus muss sich, scheint mir, ergeben, wie weit mein Denken=20= der Gegenwart, Zukunft, oder der Vergangenheit angehoert. Denn ich habe=20= mich damit auch als einen bekannt, der nicht ganz kann, was er zu=20 koennen wuenscht. I think I summed up my attitude to philosophy when I said=A0: = philosophy=20 ought really to be written only as a *poetic composition*. It must, as=20= it seems to me, be possible to gather from this how far my thinking=20 belongs to the present, future, or past. For I was thereby revealing=20 myself as somone who cannot quite do what he would like to be able to=20 do. The translation is by Peter Winch (Ludwig Wittgenstein, Cuture = and=20 Value, Chicago=A0: U. of Chicago Press, 1980, p. 25), but I wonder about=20= Winch's rendition of "Philosophie duerfte man eigentlich nur=20 *dichten*"=A0: I would have translated something like "In fact,=20 philosophy should really only be done like poetry", or something of the=20= sort. One things of Socrates' dream in which he was practicing music, = and of=20 Nietzche's philosophical ideal of a dancing Socrates in the Birth of=20 Tragedy (=A7 16, translation by Johnston @=20 http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/Nietzsche/tragedy_all.htm)=A0: "=A0Where culture is concerned, that despotic logician [that is, = Socrates=20 - MC] now and then had the feeling of a gap, an emptiness, a partial=20 sense of reproach for a duty he might have neglected. As he explains to=20= his friends in prison, often one and the same dream apparition came to=20= him, always with the words, "Socrates, practise music!" He calmed=20 himself, right up to his last days, with the interpretation that his=20 philosophizing was the highest musical art, and believed that it was=20 incorrect that a divinity would remind him of "common, popular music."=20= Finally in prison he came to understand how, in order to relieve his=20 conscience completely, to practice that music which he had considered=20 insignificant. And in this mood, he composed a poem to Apollo [German=A0:=20= "*dichtet* er ein Prooemium auf Apollo" ; compare Wittgenstein, quoted=20= supra - MC] and rendered a few of Aesop's fables in verse. What drove him to this practice was something like the voice of his=20 warning daemon. It was his Apollonian insight that, like a barbarian=20 king, he did not understand a divine image and was in danger of sinning=20= against a divinity through his failure to understand. That statement of=20= Socrates's dream vision is the single indication of his thinking about=20= something perhaps beyond the borders of his logical nature. So he had=20 to ask himself: Have I always labeled unintelligible things I could not=20= understand? Perhaps there is a kingdom of wisdom which is forbidden to=20= the logician? Perhaps art is even a necessary correlative and=20 supplement to scientific understanding? Best, Mike. > Michael Chase (goya@xxxxxxxxxxx) CNRS UPR 76 7, rue Guy Moquet Villejuif 94801 France ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html