[lit-ideas] Re: Hamas and Israel's "Right to Exist"
- From: Omar Kusturica <omarkusto@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 09:50:40 -0700 (PDT)
Oh yes, Stan, you can always read my mind. I am
sometimes not sure that I can, but you can do it for
me anytime.
O.K.
--- Stan Spiegel <writeforu2@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Omar:
> So could we agree
> > that neither side should be demanding the other to
> > recognize its "right to exist" as a condition for
> > negotiations ? Such a recognition should hopefully
> be
> > the outcome of the (long and complicated)
> > negotiations, not a pre-condition for them.
>
> I like your apparent "even-handedness" in saying
> this. Reminds me of the old
> saying: "Neither rich nor poor are prohibited from
> sleeping under a bridge
> on rainy nights." As a virulent anti-semite, you're
> quite good at cloaking
> your prejudice in the appearance of reasonableness.
>
> Stan Spiegel
> Portland, ME
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steven G. Cameron" <stevecam@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:19 PM
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Hamas and Israel's "Right
> to Exist"
>
>
> >
> > **As we both know, Omar, in the ME timing is
> everything. Few of those
> > countries have long-established borders -- and
> none was decided by the
> > indigenous populations -- rather, instead, by
> European colonizers -
> > divvying (sp??) up the region. So why only open
> discussions and limit
> > them to Israel/Plestine?? It seems to me that
> much of the region's
> > borders are without a doubt, highly suspect and
> questionable...
> >
> > TC,
> >
> > /Steve Cameron, NJ
> >
> >
> >
> > Omar Kusturica wrote:
> >
> >> I don't think that Jordan and Lebanon are
> relevant,
> >> both have established borders except for
> Lebanon's
> >> claim to Sheba'a farms but that is really a minor
> >> issue. As to Palestine - well, yes, the issue of
> the
> >> Palestinian borders is also murky. So could we
> agree
> >> that neither side should be demanding the other
> to
> >> recognize its "right to exist" as a condition for
> >> negotiations ? Such a recognition should
> hopefully be
> >> the outcome of the (long and complicated)
> >> negotiations, not a pre-condition for them.
> >>
> >> O.K.
> >>
> >>
> >> --- "Steven G. Cameron" <stevecam@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>**Would similar standards then apply to other
> >>>"created" states in the ME such as Trans-Jordan,
> Lebanon, etc., and the
> >>>yet to
> >>>be: "Palestine"??
> >>>
> >>>TC,
> >>>
> >>>/Steve Cameron, NJ
> >>>
> >>>Omar Kusturica wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>What does a "right to exist" mean exactly? There
> >>>
> >>>is no
> >>>
> >>>>"right to exist" for states under international
> >>>
> >>>law.
> >>>
> >>>>The formula has arisen in international
> diplomacy
> >>>>uniquely regarding Israel. It does not mean
> simply
> >>>>diplomatic recognition, which is the "fact" of
> >>>>existence. It does not mean recognizing Israel's
> >>>>"right to self-determination," either, or we
> would
> >>>
> >>>be
> >>>
> >>>>using that famous term.
> >>>>
> >>>>Let us pretend for a moment that Hamas is being
> >>>
> >>>asked
> >>>
> >>>>to recognize Israel in the normal diplomatic
> >>>
> >>>sense. In
> >>>
> >>>>this case, however, the EU position is
> >>>
> >>>unsupportable,
> >>>
> >>>>because diplomatic recognition of a state
> >>>
> >>>routinely
> >>>
> >>>>requires one bit of vital information: "right to
> >>>>exist" where? Israel's borders are not set. Even
> >>>
> >>>its
> >>>
> >>>>plans for those borders are not known; with
> >>>
> >>>impressive
> >>>
> >>>>brashness, Mr. Olmert has announced that we will
> >>>
> >>>not
> >>>
> >>>>know until 2010.
> >>>>
> >>>>It is entirely legitimate for Hamas to require
> >>>
> >>>firm
> >>>
> >>>>confirmation of Israel's borders before
> >>>
> >>>recognizing
> >>>
> >>>>it. It should also be incumbent on the
> >>>
> >>>international
> >>>
> >>>>community to confirm where those borders will be
> >>>>before insisting that Hamas recognize Israel's
> >>>
> >>>"right"
> >>>
> >>>>to them. Otherwise, recognizing Israel's "right
> to
> >>>>exist" could be construed to mean that Israel
> has
> >>>
> >>>a
> >>>
> >>>>"right to exist" within whatever borders it
> >>>
> >>>chooses in
> >>>
> >>>>coming years.
> >>>>
> >>>>As the Palestinians stand to lose most of what
> is
> >>>
> >>>left
> >>>
> >>>>of their homeland to this fuzziness, Hamas is
> >>>
> >>>refusing
> >>>
> >>>>to endorse it. Is this extremist Islamic
> >>>>intransigence, warranting a funding freeze? Let
> us
> >>>
> >>>run
> >>>
> >>>>a little thought experiment: Would Canadian, or
> >>>>Norwegian, or English, or French governments be
> >>>
> >>>called
> >>>
> >>>>on the international carpet for not recognizing
> >>>
> >>>the
> >>>
> >>>>"right to exist" of a neighboring state that is,
> >>>
> >>>with
> >>>
> >>>>military force, settling its own ethnically
> >>>
> >>>defined
> >>>
> >>>>population within contiguous walled cities and
> >>>>enclaves in Canadian, Norwegian, English or
> French
> >>>>national territories, while promising to carve
> >>>
> >>>those
> >>>
> >>>>nations into "cantons?"
> >>>>
> >>>>Absent clear borders, recognizing Israel's
> "right
> >>>
> >>>to
> >>>
> >>>>exist" must mean something else. And of course
> it
> >>>>does. Clearly implicit in the term is Israel's
> >>>
> >>>right
> >>>
> >>>>to exist as a Jewish state. In other words, the
> >>>>"right" Hamas is being required to endorse is
> that
> >>>>Israel can legitimately compose itself as a
> state
> >>>
> >>>in
> >>>
> >>>>Palestine that is populated and run primarily by
> >>>
> >>>Jews,
> >>>
> >>>>primarily for Jews. Such a state would thus be
> >>>>authorized by Hamas to sustain whatever laws and
> >>>>policies necessary to preserving its Jewish
> >>>
> >>>majority,
> >>>
> >>>>even rejecting the return of Palestinian
> refugees
> >>>>mandated by international law. Or building a
> >>>
> >>>massive
> >>>
> >>>>Wall on Palestinian land designed to protect the
> >>>>Jewish state from the "demographic threat" of
> mass
> >>>>non-Jewish citizenship-i.e., the Palestinians.
> >>>>Israel's would also be legitimized for past
> >>>
> >>>actions on
> >>>
> >>>>the same agenda, such as expelling the
> >>>
> >>>Palestinians
> >>>
> >>>>from their homes in 1948, and for its future
> >>>
> >>>plans,
> >>>
> >>>>such as confining Palestine's indigenous people
> to
> >>>>cantons.
> >>>>
> >>>>http://www.counterpunch.org/tilley05112006.html
> >>>>
>
>>>>__________________________________________________
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> >>>
> >>
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