[lit-ideas] Re: Hamas and Israel's "Right to Exist"

  • From: "Stan Spiegel" <writeforu2@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 12:46:48 -0400

Omar:
So could we agree
that neither side should be demanding the other to
recognize its "right to exist" as a condition for
negotiations ? Such a recognition should hopefully be
the outcome of the (long and complicated)
negotiations, not a pre-condition for them.

I like your apparent "even-handedness" in saying this. Reminds me of the old saying: "Neither rich nor poor are prohibited from sleeping under a bridge on rainy nights." As a virulent anti-semite, you're quite good at cloaking your prejudice in the appearance of reasonableness.


Stan Spiegel
Portland, ME


----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven G. Cameron" <stevecam@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:19 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Hamas and Israel's "Right to Exist"




**As we both know, Omar, in the ME timing is everything. Few of those countries have long-established borders -- and none was decided by the indigenous populations -- rather, instead, by European colonizers - divvying (sp??) up the region. So why only open discussions and limit them to Israel/Plestine?? It seems to me that much of the region's borders are without a doubt, highly suspect and questionable...


TC,

/Steve Cameron, NJ



Omar Kusturica wrote:

I don't think that Jordan and Lebanon are relevant,
both have established borders except for Lebanon's
claim to Sheba'a farms but that is really a minor
issue. As to Palestine - well, yes, the issue of the
Palestinian borders is also murky. So could we agree
that neither side should be demanding the other to
recognize its "right to exist" as a condition for
negotiations ? Such a recognition should hopefully be
the outcome of the (long and complicated)
negotiations, not a pre-condition for them.

O.K.


--- "Steven G. Cameron" <stevecam@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


**Would similar standards then apply to other
"created" states in the ME such as Trans-Jordan, Lebanon, etc., and the yet to
be: "Palestine"??


TC,

/Steve Cameron, NJ

Omar Kusturica wrote:

What does a "right to exist" mean exactly? There

is no

"right to exist" for states under international

law.

The formula has arisen in international diplomacy
uniquely regarding Israel. It does not mean simply
diplomatic recognition, which is the "fact" of
existence. It does not mean recognizing Israel's
"right to self-determination," either, or we would

be

using that famous term.

Let us pretend for a moment that Hamas is being

asked

to recognize Israel in the normal diplomatic

sense. In

this case, however, the EU position is

unsupportable,

because diplomatic recognition of a state

routinely

requires one bit of vital information: "right to
exist" where? Israel's borders are not set. Even

its

plans for those borders are not known; with

impressive

brashness, Mr. Olmert has announced that we will

not

know until 2010.

It is entirely legitimate for Hamas to require

firm

confirmation of Israel's borders before

recognizing

it. It should also be incumbent on the

international

community to confirm where those borders will be
before insisting that Hamas recognize Israel's

"right"

to them. Otherwise, recognizing Israel's "right to
exist" could be construed to mean that Israel has

a

"right to exist" within whatever borders it

chooses in

coming years.

As the Palestinians stand to lose most of what is

left

of their homeland to this fuzziness, Hamas is

refusing

to endorse it. Is this extremist Islamic
intransigence, warranting a funding freeze? Let us

run

a little thought experiment: Would Canadian, or
Norwegian, or English, or French governments be

called

on the international carpet for not recognizing

the

"right to exist" of a neighboring state that is,

with

military force, settling its own ethnically

defined

population within contiguous walled cities and
enclaves in Canadian, Norwegian, English or French
national territories, while promising to carve

those

nations into "cantons?"

Absent clear borders, recognizing Israel's "right

to

exist" must mean something else. And of course it
does. Clearly implicit in the term is Israel's

right

to exist as a Jewish state. In other words, the
"right" Hamas is being required to endorse is that
Israel can legitimately compose itself as a state

in

Palestine that is populated and run primarily by

Jews,

primarily for Jews. Such a state would thus be
authorized by Hamas to sustain whatever laws and
policies necessary to preserving its Jewish

majority,

even rejecting the return of Palestinian refugees
mandated by international law. Or building a

massive

Wall on Palestinian land designed to protect the
Jewish state from the "demographic threat" of mass
non-Jewish citizenship-i.e., the Palestinians.
Israel's would also be legitimized for past

actions on

the same agenda, such as expelling the

Palestinians

from their homes in 1948, and for its future

plans,

such as confining Palestine's indigenous people to
cantons.

http://www.counterpunch.org/tilley05112006.html

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