[lit-ideas] Re: Hamas and Israel's "Right to Exist"
- From: Omar Kusturica <omarkusto@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 09:37:36 -0700 (PDT)
I am not sure what you are getting at here. Yes, these
borders were created in a large part by the European
colonizers, but they are now established and
internationally recognized borders. It is possible to
question the historical justification for the borders
of Western states as well. However, few states now
have left the question of their borders open until
further notice. Anyway, please spell out the
implications and goals, as you see them, of possibly
opening the question of borders of the other ME
states.
O.K.
--- "Steven G. Cameron" <stevecam@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> **As we both know, Omar, in the ME timing is
> everything. Few of those
> countries have long-established borders -- and none
> was decided by the
> indigenous populations -- rather, instead, by
> European colonizers -
> divvying (sp??) up the region. So why only open
> discussions and limit
> them to Israel/Plestine?? It seems to me that much
> of the region's
> borders are without a doubt, highly suspect and
> questionable...
>
> TC,
>
> /Steve Cameron, NJ
>
>
>
> Omar Kusturica wrote:
>
> > I don't think that Jordan and Lebanon are
> relevant,
> > both have established borders except for Lebanon's
> > claim to Sheba'a farms but that is really a minor
> > issue. As to Palestine - well, yes, the issue of
> the
> > Palestinian borders is also murky. So could we
> agree
> > that neither side should be demanding the other to
> > recognize its "right to exist" as a condition for
> > negotiations ? Such a recognition should hopefully
> be
> > the outcome of the (long and complicated)
> > negotiations, not a pre-condition for them.
> >
> > O.K.
> >
> >
> > --- "Steven G. Cameron" <stevecam@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>**Would similar standards then apply to other
> >>"created" states in the ME
> >>such as Trans-Jordan, Lebanon, etc., and the yet
> to
> >>be: "Palestine"??
> >>
> >>TC,
> >>
> >>/Steve Cameron, NJ
> >>
> >>Omar Kusturica wrote:
> >>
> >>>What does a "right to exist" mean exactly? There
> >>
> >>is no
> >>
> >>>"right to exist" for states under international
> >>
> >>law.
> >>
> >>>The formula has arisen in international diplomacy
> >>>uniquely regarding Israel. It does not mean
> simply
> >>>diplomatic recognition, which is the "fact" of
> >>>existence. It does not mean recognizing Israel's
> >>>"right to self-determination," either, or we
> would
> >>
> >>be
> >>
> >>>using that famous term.
> >>>
> >>>Let us pretend for a moment that Hamas is being
> >>
> >>asked
> >>
> >>>to recognize Israel in the normal diplomatic
> >>
> >>sense. In
> >>
> >>>this case, however, the EU position is
> >>
> >>unsupportable,
> >>
> >>>because diplomatic recognition of a state
> >>
> >>routinely
> >>
> >>>requires one bit of vital information: "right to
> >>>exist" where? Israel's borders are not set. Even
> >>
> >>its
> >>
> >>>plans for those borders are not known; with
> >>
> >>impressive
> >>
> >>>brashness, Mr. Olmert has announced that we will
> >>
> >>not
> >>
> >>>know until 2010.
> >>>
> >>>It is entirely legitimate for Hamas to require
> >>
> >>firm
> >>
> >>>confirmation of Israel's borders before
> >>
> >>recognizing
> >>
> >>>it. It should also be incumbent on the
> >>
> >>international
> >>
> >>>community to confirm where those borders will be
> >>>before insisting that Hamas recognize Israel's
> >>
> >>"right"
> >>
> >>>to them. Otherwise, recognizing Israel's "right
> to
> >>>exist" could be construed to mean that Israel has
> >>
> >>a
> >>
> >>>"right to exist" within whatever borders it
> >>
> >>chooses in
> >>
> >>>coming years.
> >>>
> >>>As the Palestinians stand to lose most of what is
> >>
> >>left
> >>
> >>>of their homeland to this fuzziness, Hamas is
> >>
> >>refusing
> >>
> >>>to endorse it. Is this extremist Islamic
> >>>intransigence, warranting a funding freeze? Let
> us
> >>
> >>run
> >>
> >>>a little thought experiment: Would Canadian, or
> >>>Norwegian, or English, or French governments be
> >>
> >>called
> >>
> >>>on the international carpet for not recognizing
> >>
> >>the
> >>
> >>>"right to exist" of a neighboring state that is,
> >>
> >>with
> >>
> >>>military force, settling its own ethnically
> >>
> >>defined
> >>
> >>>population within contiguous walled cities and
> >>>enclaves in Canadian, Norwegian, English or
> French
> >>>national territories, while promising to carve
> >>
> >>those
> >>
> >>>nations into "cantons?"
> >>>
> >>>Absent clear borders, recognizing Israel's "right
> >>
> >>to
> >>
> >>>exist" must mean something else. And of course it
> >>>does. Clearly implicit in the term is Israel's
> >>
> >>right
> >>
> >>>to exist as a Jewish state. In other words, the
> >>>"right" Hamas is being required to endorse is
> that
> >>>Israel can legitimately compose itself as a state
> >>
> >>in
> >>
> >>>Palestine that is populated and run primarily by
> >>
> >>Jews,
> >>
> >>>primarily for Jews. Such a state would thus be
> >>>authorized by Hamas to sustain whatever laws and
> >>>policies necessary to preserving its Jewish
> >>
> >>majority,
> >>
> >>>even rejecting the return of Palestinian refugees
> >>>mandated by international law. Or building a
> >>
> >>massive
> >>
> >>>Wall on Palestinian land designed to protect the
> >>>Jewish state from the "demographic threat" of
> mass
> >>>non-Jewish citizenship-i.e., the Palestinians.
> >>>Israel's would also be legitimized for past
> >>
> >>actions on
> >>
> >>>the same agenda, such as expelling the
> >>
> >>Palestinians
> >>
> >>>from their homes in 1948, and for its future
> >>
> >>plans,
> >>
> >>>such as confining Palestine's indigenous people
> to
> >>>cantons.
> >>>
> >>>http://www.counterpunch.org/tilley05112006.html
> >>>
>
>>>__________________________________________________
> >>>Do You Yahoo!?
> >>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> >>
> >>protection around
> >>
> >>>http://mail.yahoo.com
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >>>To change your Lit-Ideas settings
> >>
> >>(subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off,
> >>
> >>>digest on/off), visit
> >>
> >>www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html
> >>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >>To change your Lit-Ideas settings
> (subscribe/unsub,
> >>vacation on/off,
> >>digest on/off), visit
> >>www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To change your Lit-Ideas settings
> (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off,
> > digest on/off), visit
> www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html
> >
> >
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
> To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub,
> vacation on/off,
> digest on/off), visit
> www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off,
digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html
Other related posts:
