[jawsscripts] Re: MSAA Object Tracking, plus jaws cursor OSM breakage.
- From: "Geoff Chapman" <gch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 10:24:43 +1000
Goodness! wow! Well, This is jolly serious, an I'm gunna write to Mr eric
on this one when I'm done here, alerting him of the number of customers up
here now reporting definite issues with later builds of jaws 14 succeeding
918.
And will of course report back if he responds with anything useful on this.
But, just to observe, it seems to me we've kinda interwoven another,
admittedly related, aspect though, to this jaws14 problem, from the initial
MSAA object tracking that it began with. So just highlighting this for what
it may be worth, that we're now talking about potentially two separate
issues within the one thread. Which, might, kinda trip us up, unless we keep
ahold of that a bit. <grin.>
Because, for a start, as Jim pointed out as part of the initial connunram,
which made sense to me also,
one wouldn't have necessarily expected that the video hook file, which by
the way Jim is no longer called JawsVid.dll, but has now been renamed to,
fsVid.dll,
would've been in the least involved in object tracking or navigation!
Though from previous experience, in the olden days admittedly, I believe I
can confirm that the fsVid.dll video intercept file, can definitely have
ramifications on what the jaws cursor can see, or not see.
Although, having said this, given another lister's recent reported
experience trying to solve this exact problem, by carefully jumping through
the not insubstantial hoops to swap out the later jaws14 fsVid.dll, and
replace it with an earlier one, with the view to try and negate having to
totally remove jaws versions and shared components etc,
and the dll swap not actually solving the problem of the jaws cursor
visibility issue for him,
It smells to me like there's certainly something else going on here outside
of just that file, that must be connected in some way.
Like Tom, and others reported, He also had to do the whole jaws
uninstall/reinstall up to jaws13 dance, to get back his functionality.
However, all This doesn't really help Jim solve his client's broken object
MSAA tracking issue! Or not that I can see.
So Jim, to answer your question, from my viewpoint, after the recent
experience just outlined above with this other person, I'm no longer as
confident as I once was, in swapping out the video intercept fsVid.dll,
file, as being a reliable way of solving the problem. if it even touches on
the MSAA object tracking thing at all!
Which, like yourself, I'm having trouble understanding anyway!
And, as far as later builds of jaws14 breaking jaws cursor tracking, now
that I come to think of it, I had exactly the same issue late last year!
where upgrading past a certain version of 14, totally broke my jaws cursor
seeing anything on the screen in the iTunes application. where I really
needed it to. the lovely, Blank, was the only sound I could get from any
jaws cursor navigation inside iTunes.
And swapping out the later .dll for an earlier one, didn't solve that
problem for me either. I too had to uninstall and rebuild all my jaws
versions to solve the problem, and, like tom, it took me simply ages to do
that!
Now Jim I dunno if this'll be in the least relevant to further poking around
for you on this,
but, there's another potential caveat here that occurs to me, which we may
not have yet thrown into the mixfor discussion. And that is, whether it
matters whether the systems are 32-bit, or 64-bit versions of windows. And,
their corresponding 32/64-bit builds of jaws?
Because, from my researches at:
http://www.samlogic.net/articles/32-64-bit-windows-folder-x86-syswow64.htm
it seems to me that if there was any 32-bit to 64-bit emulator stuff going
on with jaws, which there probably isn't, given that there is a 64-bit
compiled version of jaws,
then, well I just thought there may be an additional source of issues
which,just might, be related to this?
Sigh, A lot of hot air for not much result really I guess. ... how vexing it
all is though!
----
From: "Bissett, Tom" <tom.bissett@xxxxxxx>
To: <jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 11:38 PM
Subject: [jawsscripts] Re: MSAA Object Tracking
>I stopped upgrading at jaws 14.0.918. The next build broke my jaws cursor.
>In order to restore the functionality I uninstalled all jaws on my machine
>going back to jaws 11. I then reinstalled jaws 11 and up to jaws 14.0.918
>the last version to work. Then I was back to where things were before the
>jaws cursor broke. Now I am gun shy about upgrading, it took so much work
>to get my system back to the way I wanted it.
> Regards
> Tom Bisset
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jawsscripts-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:jawsscripts-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Trouble
> Sent: May 7, 2013 8:31 AM
> To: jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [jawsscripts] Re: MSAA Object Tracking
>
> Well here is a straw, could it have something to do with the video
> intercept that 14 don't use.
> Because win8 is a whole new game on that subject.
>
> At 11:47 PM 5/6/2013, you wrote:
>>Hi,
>>I can confirm this guys issue. I use a drum program which requires
>>extensive use of the jaws cursor. Since updating to the latest jaws 14
>>I can no longer see anything in this program with the jaws cursor.
>>
>>I have removed jaws and shared components and user settings. Rebooted
>>and deleted all jaws folders and files, including the dcm files. I then
>>Rebooted and reinstalled jaws 13, but still have no jaws cursor action.
>>If anyone finds a solution, I too would love to know.
>>
>>Sent with Siri from Brett's iPhone
>>
>>On 07/05/2013, at 1:13 PM, "Andrew Hart" <ahart@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> > Jim,
>> >
>> > Hey, did you get him to try running JAWS with the /default switch to
>> > eliminate any user settings that could possibly be gumming up the
>> > works?
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Andrew.
>> >
>> > On 6/05/2013 9:56 PM, Jim Snowbarger wrote:
>> >> That's right, guys. I know how to use those
>> functions. I'm just trying to
>> >> figure why his system broke. He wasn't running any custom scripts at
>> >> all.
>> >> After he removed jaws 13 and 14, including the shared components,
>> >> he installed jaws 11, which should now be the definitive last word
>> >> on shared components. And,it no longer worked with that
>> >> application. He says he removed shared components but, Of course,
>> >> I wasn't there and can't verify that. I know he believes that.
>> >> <grin> But, he probably left user-specific
>> settings. No matter, he wasn't running
>> >> those versions any more. He was running jaws 11, which used to work.
>> >> Shared components are the only link between jaws versions that I know
>> >> of.
>> >>
>> >> Can I learn anything from the file version of jawsVid.dll?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Geoff Chapman" <gch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> To: <jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 7:21 PM
>> >> Subject: [jawsscripts] Re: MSAA Object Tracking
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Yeah. Like John, it seemed to me also, that at least initially, Jim
>> >> seemed more to
>> be querying what could possibly
>> >> be different about his system compared to his Client's, as regards
>> >> MSA object tracking behaviour anomalies.
>> >>
>> >> there are just sooo many caveats to tracking down all this stuff eh.
>> >>
>> >> I wonder Jim had your client removed all their user settings when
>> >> they did the jaws uninstalls?
>> >> either manually, or allowing the uninstaller to do so?
>> >>
>> >> Doesn't it ask at some point if one wishes to remove those? I just
>> >> can't recall now.
>> >>
>> >> <sigh.>.
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "jon squally" <jonsqually@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> To: <jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> Cc: <jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 7:00 PM
>> >> Subject: [jawsscripts] Re: MSAA Object Tracking
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> Hello all.
>> >>>
>> >>> I do not think that Jim is really asking how to develop further
>> >>> functionality here. I had a similar issue a while back.
>> >>>
>> >>> It should be noted that my issue was with an application that used
>> >>> MSAA and IE window throughout the scripts and that the issue was
>> >>> with Jaws 12.0. The way I resolved this was to insure that all
>> >>> signs of Jaws specific folders were manually removed. The user
>> >>> settings were also deleted. This is after uninstalling all versions
>> >>> of Jaws and shared
>> >>> components. Additionally I reinstalled
>> the version recompiled the script
>> >>> file in question within TextPad using SCompile. I also seem to
>> >>> remember setting an MSAA flag within my JCF file. The msaa mode
>> >>> can be checked in script utility mode.I finally got this working
>> >>> again after realizing that Th jaws installer does what seems like
>> >>> more of a complete installation when all remnants are removed
>> >>> first. The
>> other question to ask is how are
>> >>> other programs doing when using MSAA? I hope this helps, Jon.
>> >>>
>> >>> Jon Squally
>> >>> Adaptive Computer Solutions LLC
>> >>> Bridging the Gap to Software Accessibility Jaws certified 92%
>> >>> 6/2011 Web site: <http://www.jonsqually.com>
>> >>> Phone: 503.752.2291
>> >>> Fax: 503.536.6795
>> >>> Email: support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On May 3, 2013, at 9:28 PM, John Martyn
>> >>> <johnrobertmartyn@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Did you try GetObjectName?
>> >>>> Joh
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> From: jawsscripts-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>>> [mailto:jawsscripts-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim
>> >>>> Snowbarger
>> >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 7:31 PM
>> >>>> To: jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>>> Subject: [jawsscripts] MSAA Object Tracking
>> >>>>
>> >>>> This one has me stumped. I wonder if you guys have any ideas.
>> >>>> A client has approached me with a problem application, one of the
>> >>>> lovely Izotope audio applications. It's another one of those
>> >>>> apps where the jaws cursor sees only the window title bar, and
>> >>>> nothing else.
>> >>>> The company did some work to make it accessible through MSAA. As
>> >>>> a result of that, Jaws is generally tracking the control with
>> >>>> focus as you tab around. But, the implementation seems a little
>> >>>> strange. If you poke around with the jaws cursor, and just
>> >>>> happen to find your way to the control with focus, you can do
>> >>>> getObjectAtPoint, and get the object. But, it has no parent, no
>> >>>> children, and no peers. It is just out in space all by itself.
>> >>>> Jaws can speak the object if you call SayObjectTypeAndText().
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The problem started to develop when he upgraded to jaws 13, on
>> >>>> windows 7
>> >>>> 64
>> >>>> bit, in that some controls were not spoken, while most still
>> >>>> were. But, when he bumped up to jaws 14, all object tracking
>> >>>> ceased. He can no longer hear control names, and
>> >>>>
>> >>>> SayObjectTypeAndText() just says the name of the main window, no
>> >>>> matter where he thinks he is focused. NVDA is able to track the
>> >>>> object just fine.
>> >>>> But, jaws has lost track.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> He removed jaws 14 and shared components. Even removed jaws 13
>> >>>> and shared, though presumably there weren't any. So, he thinks
>> >>>> he is clean. But installing jaws 13 by itself, did not recover
>> >>>> to previous jaws 13 behavior, but now exhibits the jaws 14
>> >>>> behavior of not speaking the control in focus.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The weird thing is that jaws 14 tracks the
>> object just fine on my system,
>> >>>> though I have not installed the latest patch, after reading some
>> >>>> of the comments made here. I think he had done so.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Actually, I thought shared components was mostly video intercept
>> >>>> logic, and would have nothing to do with MSAA.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> So, I'm at a loss to help him figure out how to get that working
>> >>>> again.
>> >>>> Thus, I come to you.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Anybody have any suggestions?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thanks very much.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
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