Re: USF4 changes!
- From: Stephen Scheidel <gieroadsteve@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 18:15:34 +0200
Kof has what I would call "aggressive spacing" because the movement is
good and the tools you use for the movement can in a lot of cases be
confirmed into damage.
It does in most cases look like rushdown but there is more to it.
On 12/06/2014, Manase Zote <bmlzote@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> You still need to pick the best times to rushdown in KOF or else
> characters like King, Takuma, Athena, Ash, Saiki, Duo Lon, Elizabeth,
> Billy Kane will eat you up.
> The game has a nice balance were if you are reckless and abuse any
> tactic be it rush-down or Turtle/zoning will be punished hard.
> So no KOF is not a rush-down orientated game :)
>
> On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Donaldson, Alasdair
> <alasdair.donaldson@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Yeah, but KOF is a serious rush down game. MK is not.
>> As someone who prefers to play characters that can hang back and see how
>> things are going, I'm a little apprehensive about giving certain
>> characters with good rush down capabilities and armour just another tool
>> to force their way in.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cpt-fgc-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cpt-fgc-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of Manase Zote
>> Sent: 12 June 2014 4:50 PM
>> To: cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: USF4 changes!
>>
>> I can just imagine if we needed a meter for hoping/super hop/super jumping
>> rolling and running in KOF it would be so slow.
>> One of the few games I know where zoning is not an issue against
>> non-zoning characters.
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 4:27 PM, Donaldson, Alasdair
>> <alasdair.donaldson@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> Don't you need meter for some of the movement stuff in KOF? I mean the
>>> rolls?
>>> Who knows how this is going to work? I presume the backdashing will be
>>> enough to clear the space and either give you the opportunity to whiff
>>> punish or set up some zoning stuff.
>>> This is MK... they've never had proper backdashes before. They're now
>>> adding new movement and people are still complaining that this will
>>> reduce their ability to play the game? How?
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: cpt-fgc-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:cpt-fgc-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Manase Zote
>>> Sent: 12 June 2014 4:22 PM
>>> To: cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: USF4 changes!
>>>
>>> In other games we can backlash until the cows come home and there is no
>>> meter for that and the game is still fair nothing broken about the
>>> mechanic. lol In street fighter if you backdash non stop you corner
>>> yourself and that alone is bad so I still don't understand why you would
>>> need meter in helping with your suicide(cornering yourself).
>>> My suggestion is just balance the back dash so that it's not OP(like in
>>> SF, KOF and other 2D fighters).
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Di Lhong <numotd@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> The "agility bar" backdash covers much more distance than that i think.
>>>> Also, if we can just backdash nonstop and avoid normals and
>>>> strings...rushdown/pressure characters will have problem, because
>>>> they'll just backdash and avoid everything all the time.
>>>>
>>>> Unless they make backdashing more technical like Tekken. I think the
>>>> agility bar is fair. It doesn't limit anything at all. It helps with
>>>> tough situation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Manase Zote <bmlzote@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> MK9 didn't have a bar for back dashing and it was just fine so what
>>>>> was wrong with that?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 4:05 PM, Di Lhong <numotd@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>> > The movement and pace of the game seems to be the same as mk9
>>>>> > (which i think is ok but not the best). The agility bar enhances
>>>>> > that a lot more for
>>>>> > 1-2
>>>>> > bars. So i don't mind it. It doesn't limit the movement of game at
>>>>> > all.
>>>>> > Eg.
>>>>> > Tekken movement but you can do a "super" backdash for 1 agility
>>>>> > bar (that fills up on it's own pretty nicely) to get out of Nina's
>>>>> > df+1
>>>>> > ss+1 pressure...or spend 2 agility bars to avoid nina's df+1 ss+1
>>>>> > pressure by using stage interactables and jump away. Not sure if
>>>>> > you're invincible or not during the jump...What was injustice like?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > So the basic movements is there. No limitation at all. Agility bar
>>>>> > helps but doesn't defy the whole movement gameplay.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 3:56 PM, Manase Zote <bmlzote@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> At this point no one knows how all of the above system mechanics
>>>>> >> are going to turn out.
>>>>> >> Limiting movement to a bar is a crime in any fighting game
>>>>> >> because you need movement for everything you do in a fighting game.
>>>>> >> It also affects the pacing of the overall match. So for me
>>>>> >> limiting movement to a bar is a gimmick and will only give
>>>>> >> players more problems rather than assisting them in a match.
>>>>> >> I still don't see how styles can solve bad match ups, zoner will
>>>>> >> always have an advantage from range, rushdown owns up-close...
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 3:42 PM, Di Lhong <numotd@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>> >> > There's an agility bar. New bar. Nothing to do with EX bar. It
>>>>> >> > fills up pretty quickly. There's 2 bar. You use 1 to perform
>>>>> >> > run or a backdash (spaces out quite a bit). I think this is
>>>>> >> > fair. It fills up fast enough to use it every now and then. But
>>>>> >> > not enough to just spam nonstop. You use
>>>>> >> > 2 to
>>>>> >> > use stage interactables. So it's not a stage interactablefest
>>>>> >> > like Injustice. You have to decide if it'll be worth it to use
>>>>> >> > interactables or to just dash up to continue pressure / dash
>>>>> >> > away to keep zoning.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > As for variation. It's like saying Catwomen decides to do
>>>>> >> > rushdown.
>>>>> >> > And
>>>>> >> > Grundy decides to do "zoning" with his zombie ground grab
>>>>> >> > thingy (meaning he'll not have his armor chainthrows etc.)
>>>>> >> > Catwomen will just run up to grundy with her claw slash and
>>>>> >> > ignore most of Grundy's zoning. I'm hoping the character
>>>>> >> > variation is NOT going to be rock/paper/scissors. Hope it helps
>>>>> >> > you with really bad match up, but still at the end of the
>>>>> >> > day...it's what you do. Because in MK9, i can just spam Kabal's
>>>>> >> > instant air fireball like a noob and know some combos and it'll
>>>>> >> > already be hard to win against kabal without having to learn
>>>>> >> > his advance nomad dash cancels if you play someone who has trouble
>>>>> >> > with zoning.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > so instead of choosing a variation and giving you instant win
>>>>> >> > (because you only keep a few moveset between variations). i'm
>>>>> >> > hoping variation helps with really bad match ups like 9-1 or
>>>>> >> > 8-2 to something like 6-4 or 5-5 and what not. because fighting
>>>>> >> > games should be about what you can do as a player.
>>>>> >> > just because i know stupid spamming basic kabal shouldn't give
>>>>> >> > me instant advantage over someone who's really good with
>>>>> >> > sheeva, scorpion or sub zero (don't know which characters have
>>>>> >> > issue with zoning in mk9...)
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Manase Zote
>>>>> >> > <bmlzote@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> SAP just told me that you need meter to run?
>>>>> >> >> Isn't that supposed to be stone age mechanics(having a meter
>>>>> >> >> for running)?
>>>>> >> >> Who said running was broken?
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> *Sigh*
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> Back in MK3/UMK3/MK4 that meter also managed your combos so no
>>>>> >> >> meter no chain combos no running around :(
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 3:18 PM, Wynand-Ben
>>>>> >> >> <paashaasggx@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> >> >> wrote:
>>>>> >> >> > Im also not seeing how it can help bad matchups.
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> > Picking a different version of the same character or a
>>>>> >> >> > different character all together between matches would be
>>>>> >> >> > just like it was now.
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> > Counterpicking etc.
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 15:11:20 +0200
>>>>> >> >> >> Subject: Re: USF4 changes!
>>>>> >> >> >> From: bmlzote@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>> >> >> >> To: cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> How do you get around the rock/paper/scissors character
>>>>> >> >> >> selection?
>>>>> >> >> >> Player 1 picks his zoning scorpion while player 2 goes for
>>>>> >> >> >> rush down version of scorpion, it will still be a bad match
>>>>> >> >> >> up for one of the guys regardless.
>>>>> >> >> >> Tools of the characters, match-up exp and lastly the skill
>>>>> >> >> >> level and execution will be the deciding factor.
>>>>> >> >> >> To me the understanding of a balance fighting is to make
>>>>> >> >> >> every character the same...
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Di Lhong
>>>>> >> >> >> <numotd@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> >> >> >> wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >> > Hmmm a good fighting game shouldn't be all about bad
>>>>> >> >> >> > match up and lack of knowledge...it should still be fun
>>>>> >> >> >> > and challenging in another level when your opponent knows
>>>>> >> >> >> > what your character can do.
>>>>> >> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >> > Yes there are bad match ups and character knowledge in
>>>>> >> >> >> > fighting games.
>>>>> >> >> >> > but
>>>>> >> >> >> > it shouldn't be in a state of "i know what you're doing,
>>>>> >> >> >> > but i can't retaliate at all"
>>>>> >> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >> > Eg. Tekken. Capos. If my opponent knows how to deal with
>>>>> >> >> >> > relax stance and such. I'll play in another mode :) There
>>>>> >> >> >> > is no "instant" win in tekken.
>>>>> >> >> >> > you
>>>>> >> >> >> > can play bears and still win against top tier character
>>>>> >> >> >> > because you the player are just better. shouldn't be
>>>>> >> >> >> > bringing a plastic ruler to a gun fight situation. should
>>>>> >> >> >> > be more or less "experienced fighter with a slightly
>>>>> >> >> >> > blunt knife" vs "an okay-ish fighter with a sharp knife".
>>>>> >> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >> > On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Manase Zote
>>>>> >> >> >> > <bmlzote@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> >> >> >> > wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> This method of balancing looks like a throw of dice to me.
>>>>> >> >> >> >> It can go either way, you potentially have a scenario
>>>>> >> >> >> >> where you can lose a match based on lack of character
>>>>> >> >> >> >> knowledge rather than skill.
>>>>> >> >> >> >> If the game has like 30 characters for an example
>>>>> >> >> >> >> multiply that by 3 so on average you need to be aware of
>>>>> >> >> >> >> what all 90 variations are capable of?
>>>>> >> >> >> >> Let's wait and see what the move list looks like and how
>>>>> >> >> >> >> many moves will change between 3 variations of a
>>>>> >> >> >> >> character.
>>>>> >> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 2:33 PM, Di Lhong
>>>>> >> >> >> >> <numotd@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >> >> > 11.59? XD
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >> >> > Hopefully the character variation will be some answer
>>>>> >> >> >> >> > to really bad match up. Not sure how they'll balance
>>>>> >> >> >> >> > it tho. It'll be weird to just be a total counter to
>>>>> >> >> >> >> > another characters variation completely. If that's the
>>>>> >> >> >> >> > case, it'll be more rock paper scissors situation than
>>>>> >> >> >> >> > a fighting game lolz hopefully the variations will
>>>>> >> >> >> >> > make match ups like 9-1 to 6-4 or what not. So
>>>>> >> >> >> >> > there'll still be unfavourable match ups but not a
>>>>> >> >> >> >> > complete lose like MK9...eg. Kabal vs Sheeva...
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >> >> > On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Ryan Williams
>>>>> >> >> >> >> > <ryan820509@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> > wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >> I think 12:00 is a safer option Rich :)
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 2:24 PM,
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >> <greattekkenmaster@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >> wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Is 11:30 fine also?? I wanna get game time as much
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>> as I can Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>> your email find you!
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>> ________________________________
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>> From: Ryan Williams <ryan820509@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Sender: cpt-fgc-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 14:15:48 +0200
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>> To: <cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>> ReplyTo: cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Subject: Re: USF4 changes!
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Heya peeps, we'll be starting the Sat sessions at
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>> 12pm to maximise game time.
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Anyone who is keen on starting a little earlier can
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>> join us at that time.
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>> If you aren't able to make 12pm, that's fine as well.
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>> On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 1:39 PM, Ashraf Barendse
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>> <ashraf.barendse@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I think she feeling a bit lazy today. She was like
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> "Can I speak to the main owner of the computer" and
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I was like "he's at work"
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> and
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> she
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> was
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> like
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> "k thanx bye"
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 1:32 PM, Nicholas
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Robertson-Muir <nicmuir@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> I love those.
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> Start talking linux, usually goes well.
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> "move to your start bar"
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> "don't have one"
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> "what version of Windows are you using"
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> "I'm not using Windows"
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> "Open up Internet Explorer"
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> "don't have that either"
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> "open your web browser"
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> "mkay"
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> "install this app"
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> "using my regular tar.z loader or the synaptic
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> package manage?"
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> "huh?"
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> good times.
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Ashraf Barendse
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> <ashraf.barendse@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> lol, got a call from an Indian sounding lady
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> calling from "Windows Technical Department"
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> How about no.
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Ryan Williams
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> <ryan820509@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> "Can I just buy a complete game please?"
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> Not going to happen in this day and age. Those
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> days are over.
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Nicholas
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> Robertson-Muir <nicmuir@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> LOL
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> I don't know which I hate more about fighting
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> games.
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> The
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> update
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> approach like Street Fighter, or the supposedly
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> new game like Blazblue and Persona.
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> It makes me not want to buy the games anymore,
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> because there will be an Update later.
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> Can I just buy a complete game please?
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> Do I need to buy another Persona now?
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> Do I need to buy another Blazblue now?
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> I'm just ranting because I see there's a new
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> character coming out for P4A ...and I was
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> planning to get the new Blazblue (english
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> version)...
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> In all honesty, the Capcom approach makes more
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> sense to me, as much as I dislike it.
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 12:23 PM, Wynand-Ben
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> <paashaasggx@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> A new dark age starting off with a new Guilty
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> Gear I can definitely live with :D
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> > Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 11:59:23 +0200
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> > Subject: Re: USF4 changes!
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> > From: gieroadsteve@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> > To: cpt-fgc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> >
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> > I'm all for the next FG dark age.
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> > Wreal wrap.
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> >
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> > On 12/06/2014, Ilitirit Sama
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> > <ilitirit@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> > > Mortal Kombat Honest Trailer:
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCiVYKmCve
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> > > Y
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> >
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> >
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> >
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> >
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> >
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> >
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> > ============================================
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>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> >>
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