[C] [Wittrs] Digest Number 92

  • From: WittrsAMR@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • To: WittrsAMR@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: 1 Jan 2010 10:45:56 -0000

Title: WittrsAMR

Messages In This Digest (9 Messages)

Messages

1.1.

Re: Consciousness and Quantum Mechanics

Posted by: "J" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:06 pm (PST)



SWM,

"things you have
> alleged you have read",

Excuse me? "Alleged"?

Do you mean to suggest that I am lying about having read some of your previous exchanges on other boards through GoogleGroups?

Why would I lie about that? What possible basis could you have for suggesting it?

If this is some pathetic attempt to draw me into your little web of pointless, mind-numbing discussion by suggesting that I have to prove that I have actually read some of the things that have led me to see that very pointlessness, it won't work.

> I especially noted your statement that I do not understand
> what Searle means by "strong AI". I suggest you present
> evidence for that claim

Considered and rejected. I only offered that observation in hopes dissuading you of the continued references to your reading of Searle and the Chinese Room Argument. Apparently, the observation has had the opposite effect.

at which point I shall be glad to
> address it.

That's, um, very kind of you? Why on Earth would I be interested in that, given what I already think of your remarks on Searle and given that I've no interest in picking up where many others have left off?

I expect you can do better than
> that.

I can but I see no reason to bother.

>
> When you post your evidence for your claims with regard to
> my position on the CRA I suggest...

"When"? My, aren't we just brimming with confidence?

As for the rest of your message, I'll say this: if I erred in supposing that your earlier remark -
> > it is not von Neumann's argument at all but Joe
> > > Polanik's argument, which no longer has the
> veneer of von
> > > Neumann's authority, but, in fact, involves a
> departure from
> > > von Neumann's claims.

- suggested that you might be taking the argument more seriously on the basis of von Neumann's putative authority, I stand corrected.

JPDeMouy

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1.2.

Re: Consciousness and Quantum Mechanics

Posted by: "void" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:39 pm (PST)





--- In WittrsAMR@yahoogroups.com, "SWM" <wittrsamr@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Wittrs@yahoogroups.com, "BruceD" <blroadies@> wrote:
> >
> > The following snipets help me to clarify my position
> >
> > --- In Wittrs@yahoogroups.com, "SWM" <SWMirsky@> wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > > the observer cannot be a physically derived phenomenon?
> >
> > hence..
> >
>
> > > requires that we posit something non-physical
> > > as the source of consciousness...
> >
> Dear sirs

One word is derived from another word.So first is the origin of later.
Sound is the origin of human world.Consciousness is the output of verbal sound hence it is physical.Human vision,idea,verification,thinking is all conceptual so better we see what is concept in its entire form.I feel sense of the word is important but not the structure of the word.I may be wrong.

A concept is a common feature or characteristic. Kant investigated the way that empirical a posteriori concepts are created.
The logical acts of the understanding by which concepts are generated as to their form are: (1.) comparison, i.e., the likening of mental images to one another in relation to the unity of consciousness; (2.) reflection, i.e., the going back over different mental images, how they can be comprehended in one consciousness; and finally (3.) abstraction or the segregation of everything else by which the mental images differ. ? In order to make our mental images into concepts, one must thus be able to compare, reflect, and abstract, for these three logical operations of the understanding are essential and general conditions of generating any concept whatever. For example, I see a fir, a willow, and a linden. In firstly comparing these objects, I notice that they are different from one another in respect of trunk, branches, leaves, and the like; further, however, I reflect only on what they have in common, the trunk, the branches, the leaves themselves, and abstract from their size, shape, and so forth; thus I gain a concept of a tree.

Kant declared that human minds possess pure or a priori concepts. Instead of being abstracted from individual perceptions, like empirical concepts, they originate in the mind itself. He called these concepts categories, in the sense of the word that means predicate, attribute, characteristic, or quality. But these pure categories are predicates of things in general, not of a particular thing. According to Kant, there are 12 categories that constitute the understanding of phenomenal objects. Each category is that one predicate which is common to multiple empirical concepts. In order to explain how an a priori concept can relate to individual phenomena, in a manner analogous to an a posteriori concept, Kant employed the technical concept of the schema.

From English Wikipedia (Golden dictionary)

thank you
sekhar

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1.3.

Re: Consciousness and Quantum Mechanics

Posted by: "SWM" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:42 pm (PST)



--- In Wittrs@yahoogroups.com, "J" <wittrsamr@...> wrote:

> SWM,
>
> "things you have
> > alleged you have read",
>
> Excuse me? "Alleged"?
>
> Do you mean to suggest that I am lying about having read some of your previous exchanges on other boards through GoogleGroups?
>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Alleged

Main Entry: al·leged
Pronunciation: \&#601;-&#712;lejd, -&#712;le-j&#601;d\
Function: adjective
Date: 15th century
1 : asserted to be true or to exist <an alleged miracle>

2 : questionably true or of a specified kind : supposed, so-called <bought an alleged antique vase>

3 : accused but not proven or convicted <an alleged burglar>

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/alleged

al&#8901;leged&#8194;&#8194;/&#601;&#712;l&#603;d&#658;d, &#601;&#712;l&#603;d&#658;&#618;d/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-lejd, uh-lej-id] Show IPA

Use alleged in a Sentence
See web results for alleged
See images of alleged
?adjective 1. declared or stated to be as described; asserted: The alleged murderer could not be located for questioning.
2. doubtful; suspect; supposed: The alleged cure-all produced no results when it was tested by reputable doctors.

> Why would I lie about that? What possible basis could you have for suggesting it?
>

See the definition of "alleged" for starters.

> If this is some pathetic attempt to draw me into your little web of pointless, mind-numbing discussion by suggesting that I have to prove that I have actually read some of the things that have led me to see that very pointlessness, it won't work.
>
>

In other words you AREN'T prepared to back up what you alleged?

> > I especially noted your statement that I do not understand
> > what Searle means by "strong AI". I suggest you present
> > evidence for that claim
>
> Considered and rejected. I only offered that observation in hopes dissuading you of the continued references to your reading of Searle and the Chinese Room Argument. Apparently, the observation has had the opposite effect.
>

Such references are made along with references to Dennett, Edelman, Hawkins, Minsky and others. What's your problem, that I've deigned to criticize Searle? Why not provide the specifics of what I have said that you find fault with and tell us why I'm wrong?

> at which point I shall be glad to
> > address it.
>
> That's, um, very kind of you? Why on Earth would I be interested in that, given what I already think of your remarks on Searle and given that I've no interest in picking up where many others have left off?
>

What you "already think" is meaningless until you can tell us the details of this. You way I have Searle wrong and content yourself with remarks like 'your exchange with so and so' or 'I have read'. Well what exactly are you alleging I've said or that you've read? Show us the text so we can assess it in full, in context, as part of the ongoing thread in which it appeared, etc. Otherwise you're just making snide noises.

> I expect you can do better than
> > that.
>
> I can but I see no reason to bother.
>

I guess I shouldn't be surprised after you have refused to show us the money as it were.

> >
> > When you post your evidence for your claims with regard to
> > my position on the CRA I suggest...
>
> "When"? My, aren't we just brimming with confidence?
>

Not after seeing your response here. It's pretty clear you're not prepared to back up your charges so they aren't worth very much. I'll be passing on your comments from here on unless and until you support what you have said regarding my position on Searle. Should you finally decide to do THAT, make sure you do it on a separate thread with a clear header so I won't miss it, if you think it's fair that I should actually see what you post on the subject, of course.

> As for the rest of your message, I'll say this: if I erred in supposing that your earlier remark -
> > > it is not von Neumann's argument at all but Joe
> > > > Polanik's argument, which no longer has the
> > veneer of von
> > > > Neumann's authority, but, in fact, involves a
> > departure from
> > > > von Neumann's claims.
>
> - suggested that you might be taking the argument more seriously on the basis of von Neumann's putative authority, I stand corrected.
>
> JPDeMouy
>
>

Don't bother about it. I'm no longer interested in your stuff here until you support the allegations you've made.

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2.

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3a.

Re: [C] On Time

Posted by: "Rajasekhar Goteti" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:23 pm (PST)



Main articles: Philosophy of space and time and
Temporal
finitism
The Vedas, the earliest texts on
Indian
philosophy and Hindu philosophy dating back to the late 2nd millennium BC,
describe ancient Hindu
cosmology, in which the universe
goes through repeated cycles of creation, destruction and rebirth, with each
cycle lasting 4,320,000 years. Ancient Greek philosophers,
including Parmenides and Heraclitus, wrote essays on the
nature of time.[23]
In Book 11 of St. Augustine's Confessions, he ruminates on
the nature of time, asking, "What then is time? If no one asks me, I know: if I
wish to explain it to one that asketh, I know not." He settles on time being
defined more by what it is not than what it is,[24]
an approach similar to that taken in other negative
definitions.
In contrast to ancient Greek philosophers who believed that the universe had
an infinite past with no beginning, medieval philosophers and theologians developed the concept of the universe
having a finite past with a beginning. This view is not shared by Abrahamic
faiths as they believe time started by creation, therefore the only thing being
infinite is God and everything else, including time, is finite.
Newton's belief in absolute space, and a precursor to Kantian time, Leibniz believed
that time and space are relational.[25] The differences
between Leibniz's and Newton's interpretations came to a head in the famous Leibniz-Clarke
Correspondence.
Immanuel Kant, in the
Critique of Pure Reason, described
time as an a priori intuition
that allows us (together with the other a priori intuition, space) to comprehend sense experience.[26] With Kant,
neither space nor time are conceived as substances, but rather both are elements of a
systematic mental framework that
necessarily structures the experiences of any rational agent, or observing
subject. Kant thought of time as a fundamental part of an abstract
conceptual framework, together with space
and number, within which we sequence
events, quantify their duration, and
compare the motions of objects. In this view, time does not refer to any
kind of entity that "flows," that objects "move through," or that is a
"container" for events. Spatial measurements are used to quantify the extent of and distances between objects, and
temporal measurements are used to quantify the durations of and between events. (See Ontology).
Henri Bergson
believed that time was neither a real homogeneous medium nor a mental construct,
but possesses what he referred to as Duration. Duration, in Bergson's
view, was creativity and memory as an essential component of reality.[27]
sekhar

--- On Fri, 1/1/10, Cayuse <z.z7@ntlworld.com> wrote:

From: Cayuse <z.z7@ntlworld.com>
Subject: [C] [Wittrs] On Time
To: wittrsamr@freelists.org
Date: Friday, 1 January, 2010, 1:37 AM

The following text has been copied from
"Lectures on Philosophy" (LW 1932-33):
http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/at/wittgens.htm
 
12 [...] In general the sentences we are
tempted to utter occur in practical situations. But then there is a different
way we are tempted to utter sentences. This is when we look at language,
consciously direct our attention on it. And then we make up sentences of which
we say that they also ought to make sense. A sentence of this sort might not
have any particular use, but because it sounds English we consider it sensible.
Thus, for example, we talk of the flow of time and consider it sensible to talk
of its flow, after the analogy of rivers.
 
13 If we look at a river in which
numbered logs are floating, we can describe events on land with reference to
these, e.g., "When the 105th log passed, I ate dinner". Suppose the log
makes a bang on passing me. We can say these bangs are separated by equal, or
unequal, intervals. We could also say one set of bangs was twice as fast as
another set. But the equality or inequality of intervals so measured is entirely
different from that measured by a clock. The phrase "length of interval" has its
sense in virtue of the way we determine it, and differs according to the method
of measurement. Hence the criteria for equality of intervals between passing
logs and for equality of intervals measured by a clock are different. We cannot
say that two bangs two seconds apart differ only in degree from those an hour
apart, for we have no feeling of rhythm if the interval is an hour long. And to
say that one rhythm of bangs is faster than another is different from saying
that the interval between these two bangs passed much more slowly than the
interval between another pair.
 
Suppose that the passing logs seem to be equal distances apart. We have an
experience of what might be called the velocity of these (though not what is
measured by a clock). Let us say the river moves uniformly in this sense. But if
we say time passed more quickly between logs 1 and 100 than between
logs 100 and 200, this is only an analogy; really nothing has passed more
quickly. To say time passes more quickly, or that time flows, is to imagine
something flowing. We then extend the simile and talk about the
direction of time. When people talk of the direction of time, precisely the
analogy of a river is before them. Of course a river can change its direction of
flow, but one has a feeling of giddiness when one talks of time being reversed.
The reason is that the notion of flowing, of something, and of the
direction of the flow is embodied in our language.
 
Suppose that at certain intervals situations repeated themselves, and that
someone said time was circular. Would this be right or wrong? Neither. It would
only be another way of _expression_, and we could just as well talk of a circular
time. However, the picture of time as flowing, as having a direction, is one
that suggests itself very vigorously.
 
Suppose someone said that the river on which the logs float had a beginning
and will have an end, that there will be 100 more logs and that will be the end.
It might be said that there is an experience which would verify these
statements. Compare this with saying that time ceases. What is the criterion for
its ceasing or for its going on? You might say that time ceases when "Time
River" ceases. Suppose we had no substantive "time", that we talked only of the
passing of logs. Then we could have a measurement of time without any
substantive "time". Or we could talk of time coming to an end, meaning that the
logs came to an end. We could in this sense talk of time coming to an
end.
 
Can time go on apart from events? What is the criterion for time involved
in "Events began 100 years ago and time began 200 years ago"? Has time been
created, or was the world created in time? These questions are asked after the
analogy of "Has this chair been made?", and are like asking whether order has
been created (a "before" and "after"). "Time" as a substantive is terribly
misleading. We have got to make the rules of the game before we play it.
Discussion of "the flow of time" shows how philosophical problems arise.
Philosophical troubles are caused by not using language practically but by
extending it on looking at it. We form sentences and then wonder what they can
mean. Once conscious of "time" as a substantive, we ask then about the creation
of time.
Extracted from  WORD WEB     WIKIPEDIA
thank yousekhar

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4.

evolution may be the answer for consciousness

Posted by: "void" rgoteti@xxxxxxxxx   rgoteti

Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:40 pm (PST)



http://discovermaga zine.com/ 2009/the- brain-2/28- what-happened- to-hominids- who-were- smarter-than- us

As more possible outcomes of a plan become visible, the variance among judgments between individuals will likely lessen. There are far fewer correct paths?intelligent paths?than there are paths. It is sometimes argued that the illusion of free will arises from the fact that we can't adequately judge all p ossible moves, with the result that our choices are based on imperfect, sometimes impoverished, information.

One may read the full article
thank you
sekhar

5a.

Re: On Time

Posted by: "Cayuse" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:26 pm (PST)



J wrote:
> Unfortunately, some of my most recent participation has been
> ill-considered, petulant, and foolhardy. That's not to say they
> might not still have been helpful in some way or another but
> I'm not sure how much sanity they show.

Seeing through all of that, you lead in a direction that seems to
me to be eminently sensible. I hope you continue to make your
interjections, however foolhardy you may consider them.

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5b.

Re: On Time

Posted by: "Rajasekhar Goteti" rgoteti@xxxxxxxxx   rgoteti

Fri Jan 1, 2010 2:40 am (PST)



Dear sirIf one is free of ones vanity may be the beginning of true inquiry.Knowledge based on language is a super imposition over the reality.This super imposition shown by true philosophers like LW in its true sense I believe.As being a true student of philosophy should be able to see real nature of  of this super imposition otherwise called as illusion.Thank you for your comments.thank yousekhar

sekhar

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6.1.

Re: Consciousness without regard to Quantum Mechanics

Posted by: "J" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:41 pm (PST)



JRS,

I wrote:

...as it stands, various
> > interpretations of quantum mechanics are
> underdetermined...If one favors an Instrumentalist view
...then this is all...
..about our temptation to go
> beyond the maths
> > and the observations in what we say.

JRS remarked

> I just want to again endorse your post.
>
> To clarify here, when you mention an instrumentalist view
> here,
> you mean an instrumentalist (or operationalis) view of
> QM.

Yes, instrumentalism as it applies specifically to quantum mechanics. However, I would not use "instrumentalism" and "operationalism" interchangeably.

Operationalism broadly construed has come to describe a methodological recommendation followed by many practicing scientists in much scientific work. It concerns the precisification of various concepts in terms of various methods of measurement. Compared with Instrumentalism, there is nothing controversial in operationalism in this broad sense. (Although in a philosophical context, it would be better to refer to this as "using operational definitions" rather than a operationalism, per se.)

But operationalism more narrowly construed involves methodological and semantic assumptions that are problematic. Consider (originator of the doctrine) Bridgman's criticisms of Einstein's rejection of the principle in General Relativity (specifically the Principle of Equivalence) when Einstein's Special Relativity had been a principle inspiration for the doctrine. That is only the most dramatic example of how operationalism as doctrine falls short.

Note that the Principle of Equivalence is much more readily assimilated into an instrumentalist account (at least I am aware of no arguments against instrumentalism on that basis) which is not at all to say that instrumentalism is without its problems.

We could easily get sidetracked here but suffice it to say that there are good reasons to be cautious about using "operationalism" and "instrumentalism" interchangeably.

Incidentally, I am not a proponent of either position, though I believe that both approaches can shed light on conceptual questions in science.

That
> is certainly the way I believe QM must be viewed.

What sort of "must" is this?

And
> I would add
> that it is also the way a computational theory of mind
> would be
> viewed, in fact, the way computation itself must be viewed,
> and
> that even this does follow from the Wittgenstein maxim
> that
> meaning is use.

ummmm...

>
> (rereading that, no, I am not saying that holding to
> "meaning is
> use" necessarily implies an instrumentalist view,

Good!

but I
> would suggest
> it allows a compatible instrumentalist view ... which I
> happen to
> hold)
>

I'm not sure what Wittgenstein's observations regarding meaning and use do not "allow". As I've indicated elsewhere, this is not a thesis. It is simply a truism that for a large class of cases one can offer the way that a word is used as an explanation of its meaning. Recognizing that and attending to how words are used is a helpful way of thinking about meaning and of avoiding certain misunderstandings and confusions, but it's not a thesis that can allow or disallow anything.

> > I wouldn't advocate that we never attempt to do that,
> but until
> > such activities lead to new observations or new
> mathematics, the
> > dispute is merely competing ways of speaking.
>
> OTOH, I might quibble with this. Certainly JP is
> making an
> ontological claim,

It has the form of a claim, but what does this claim amount to? The person who speaks of "unconscious toothaches" may appear to be making an "ontological claim". But is she?

and asserting that he thinks von Neumann
> did,
> though you and I disagree with that last. And I am
> happy to make
> substantial claims about what scientific and
> methodological
> commitments a computational theory needs, implies,
> assumes. I
> see Turing as having done so, although I see Wittgenstein
> attempted
> to avoid doing so. And in that, I go with Turing.

Fair enough.

I would just note that Wittgenstein didn't claim to be developing a theory. Quite the contrary. This is not to say that he was opposed to theorizing, per se, only that he didn't think it consistent with his view of philosophy's role. But note well: one is perfectly free to reject such a view and regard philosophy's role is different from that.

JPDeMouy

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