[C] [Wittrs] Digest Number 114

  • From: WittrsAMR@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • To: WittrsAMR@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: 20 Jan 2010 10:39:02 -0000

Title: WittrsAMR

Messages In This Digest (13 Messages)

Messages

1a.

Re: reflections on the grammar of pictures pt.1

Posted by: "jrstern" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:36 am (PST)



--- In Wittrs@yahoogroups.com, "J D" <wittrsamr@...> wrote:
>...
> Should we say that all (figurative) paintings are "staged" but that only some look it? I wouldn't say that...

You sure ask a lot of questions!

Is it the influence of Wittgenstein that causes you to avoid proposing any general answers?

--

I don't suppose there is a general answer to whether this is or is
not a portrait of X, but I think we can cobble together some pretty
good meta-descriptions (or "grammars" if you prefer) of the issues.

For another example, there is Bruce Springsteen's song
"Born In The USA", which is often played at patriotic events,
even though if you listen to the rest of the words, one doubts
this is appropriate, except for the refrain. What of the
composer's intentions? What of the listener's comprehension?

Josh

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1b.

Re: reflections on the grammar of pictures pt.1

Posted by: "Sean Wilson" whoooo26505@xxxxxxxxx   whoooo26505

Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:53 am (PST)



(Josh on Springsteen and Born in the USA)

... yes, and this is precisely the point I was making about Beethoven versus that Potter girl. The question is whether "knowing what a song says" is part of the aesthetical criteria for the enjoyment of the art. And so some may say that in pop culture, the song is enjoyed for its repetitive chorus and feeling it imparts to the lowest-common denominator. It therefore is properly taken as "patriotic" precisely because the behavior of appreciating music of this sort is so Neanderthal in pop culture. One might even say there is no real ethic of appreciation here at all. It's just a kind of animation. However, in other circles -- what I would call the REAL circles with regard to music appreciation --  i.e., he people who actually listen to words (people who like Dylan, e.g.,), understanding the song DOES consists of understanding what it "says." And so, for this aesthetic, getting the message right is part of the enjoyment of the portrayal.  And
one would therefore say of one who misconstrued the song, that they have not gotten the thing right -- i.e., that the criteria for the aesthetic in question is not being followed.

So, to summarize: whether Dumbledore is gay is a function of conjecture home to the minds of whomever reads the books -- and the author saying he is, is indeed food for that conjecture that can be accepted or not. But whether Born in the USA is a patriotic song is a question of whether you are understanding the art properly -- unless, of course, you are take the matter not as "art," but as a kind of Bart Simpson thing.

Regards.       
 

Dr. Sean Wilson, Esq.
Assistant Professor
Wright State University
Personal Website: http://seanwilson.org
SSRN papers: http://ssrn.com/author=596860
Discussion Group: http://seanwilson.org/wittgenstein.discussion.html

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1c.

Re: reflections on the grammar of pictures pt.1

Posted by: "J D" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:44 pm (PST)



JRS,

> You sure ask a lot of questions!

Indeed.

> Is it the influence of Wittgenstein that causes you to
> avoid proposing any general answers?

That and (indirectly due to such influence) a somewhat good nose for where such proposals break down.

In the case of the question you quoted, I wanted the reader to consider the temptation to speak that way, to consider the ways that it is tempting. But then to also consider that such a way of speaking would be quite peculiar and potentially quite misleading.

But still, awakening to that temptation does reveal something of how we view paintings as opposed to photographs.

> I don't suppose there is a general answer...but I think we can cobble together..."grammars" if you prefer...of the
> issues.

Certainly, we can examine the criteria we apply in various cases, yes.

I'll comment more on the example from The Boss when I reply to Sean.

Thanks.

JPDeMouy

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2.

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Posted by: "Tanya Moukarzel" zakmodels@xxxxxxxxx

Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:55 pm (PST)




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3a.

Journals and Wittgensteinian Method

Posted by: "Sean Wilson" whoooo26505@xxxxxxxxx   whoooo26505

Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:19 pm (PST)



... anyone know if there are philosophy journals out there that would publish something written in Wittgensteinian format? (Numbered sequential thoughts, chasing a point of concern against ordinary methods of _expression_, and using simile a lot). I ask this out of curiosity, not for anything else. In fact, the reason why I ask is because I assume most surely the answer is "no," given the way that the form of "scholarship" is constructed today.  Then again, I wonder if politics doesn't play a role. If Wittgensteinians amounted to any legitimate presence at all in the academy, wouldn't it be worthwhile to have a Wittgensteinian journal that could publish things relevant to Wittgenstein, including book reviews, conventional articles, news, conferences -- and yes, attempts at the almighty's methods (assuming it was good).

I would love to start a journal one day. What does that cost? Imagine a yearly volume of Wittrs. (Now imagine a quarterly!). Surely there would be enough Wittgenstein-relevant matters to have such a thing and enough of an audience to sustain it in the academy.

Why isn't such a thing around? (Or is it?)   

Regards.

Dr. Sean Wilson, Esq.
Assistant Professor
Wright State University
Personal Website: http://seanwilson.org
SSRN papers: http://ssrn.com/author=596860
Discussion Group: http://seanwilson.org/wittgenstein.discussion.html

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3b.

Journals and Wittgensteinian Method

Posted by: "Rajasekhar Goteti" rgoteti@xxxxxxxxx   rgoteti

Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:39 pm (PST)



Dear Dr SeanSome sites are maintaining some journals of course for a cost.One may find plenty books of Wittgenstein in Amazon.com but for a price.Since Wittgenstein is a world renowned philosophers,sure every one tries to cash what they know.thank you

sekhar

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4a.

Re: Dennett's Intentional Stance

Posted by: "gabuddabout" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:22 pm (PST)





--- In WittrsAMR@yahoogroups.com, "iro3isdx" <wittrsamr@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In Wittrs@yahoogroups.com, "gabuddabout" <wittrsamr@> wrote:
>
>
> > Funny, but Searle offers a theory of Intentionality which involves
> > intrinsic and derived intentionality.
>
> Agreed. But it is a philosophical theory, not a scientific theory.
> And, in my opinion, it leaves intentionality as a mystery.

Dennett doesn't even touch it since according to him intrinsic intentionality is not something studied by the intentional stance. I think you haven't bothered to read Searle's book _Intentionality_. For Searle, philosophical theories and scientific theories must cohere. Dennett is absolved by a stance which doesn't bother with some of the facts. One fact (okay two) is/are that we mean things by what we say and that we have beliefs which are intrinsically intentional. If someone were to say that the above fact(s) is/are just philosophical, then I would submit that they are not that honest or well read.
>
>
> > On the contrary: It is a mystery for Dennett how to account for
> > intrinsic intentionality.
>
> Dennett does give an account which could, in principle, be implemented
> in an AI system. So Dennett is not making it a mystery. Of course
> there is a question as to whether Dennett's account actually works, and
> personally I am doubtful.

I'm fine with it vis a vis robots, though.

Cheers,
Budd

>
> The above is a response to message 3976
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wittrs/message/3976> .
>
>
> > Ps. Is it okay to leave the rest below ...
>
> Sean would have to give the official answer. I prefer to see it
> trimmed out. The previous message can be cited for the benefit of
> anyone who wants to see it in full.
>
> Regards,
> Neil

True, but it is more work. For those who don't wish their email box overloaded, then maybe just visit group through web instead of all the undoubtable spam as it turns out..

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4b.

Re: Dennett's Intentional Stance

Posted by: "Sean Wilson" whoooo26505@xxxxxxxxx   whoooo26505

Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:35 pm (PST)



Bud:

Let me try to explain a few things regarding the policies you have been discussing with Neil. Specifically, I'm addressing your concerns about trimming quotes and the extra effort with mails.

One of the reasons I created this group was to do something different from what Analytic was doing. It wasn't that I thought Analytic was doing something wrong, per se -- as if it should change -- it was that the marketplace had other needs to serve. Diversity is always best. Here, what we want are a little more effort put into composition. Indeed, it does take longer to remove and trim quotes (and restate the thesis or what not). But in the end, it gets us farther away from a telephone-conversation and more toward something that a person might want to read on the message board. Messages are better if they require a little effort anyway.

So, if you are inclined to continue posting, do a favor and keep discussing substantive matters in the format that the group was created for. 

(P.S. -- what was all that talk of spam? There is no spam on the list.)

Yours appreciative, 

Dr. Sean Wilson, Esq.
Assistant Professor
Wright State University
Personal Website: http://seanwilson.org
SSRN papers: http://ssrn.com/author=596860
Discussion Group: http://seanwilson.org/wittgenstein.discussion.html

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5a.

Re: Who denies the synthetic a priori?

Posted by: "Neil Rickert" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:19 pm (PST)



jrstern wrote:

> My question is to whom or what does this refer, remembering its milieu?

My guess is that Rorty was talking about logical positivists/ logical
empiricists such as Carnap.

Maybe this reference helps: http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/c/carnap.htm

Regards,
<br>Neil
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5b.

Re: Who denies the synthetic a priori?

Posted by: "J D" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:15 pm (PST)



JRS,

I'm not sure why my response didn't go through but I completely concur that the Vienna Circle and Carnap in America are the likely suspects.

I also noted that I recall Rorty's reading of the situation here being biased toward a Quinean interpretation of things, such that the attack on the analytic-synthetic distinction justified the naturalistic turn. The view is very much predicated on a Carnapian view of Analytic Philosophy and ignores the fact that Wittgenstein and OLP didn't even accept the terms in which those issues were framed let alone the thesis itself.

JPDeMouy

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5c.

Re: Who denies the synthetic a priori?

Posted by: "Sean Wilson" whoooo26505@xxxxxxxxx   whoooo26505

Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:18 pm (PST)



Hi J.

Let me know if you think something doesn't go through. I'll check it on my end. Not everything you and I (or anyone) sends goes over to Commons. So if that is what you are talking about, I could clarify how that works. Otherwise, everything you send should be landing in all the other fora. If you send something directly to the yahoo list (not to the mother list at wittrsamr@freelists.org), it will not post to the other fora. So that is sometimes a problem. Feel free to mail me if you encounter any problems.  
 
SW

----- Original Message ----

I'm not sure why my response didn't go through but I completely concur that the Vienna Circle and Carnap in America are the likely suspects.

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5d.

Re: Who denies the synthetic a priori?

Posted by: "iro3isdx" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:52 pm (PST)





--- In Wittrs@yahoogroups.com, Sean Wilson <whoooo26505@...> wrote:

> Let me know if you think something doesn't go through.

In this case it was because the original message by Josh was posted in a non-standard way so did not have a "Reply-To:" header. Replies went directly to Josh instead of to the board.

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6.1.

[C] !!!Re: Re: Metaphysical Versus Mystical

Posted by: "Rajasekhar Goteti" rgoteti@xxxxxxxxx   rgoteti

Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:28 pm (PST)



As to the notion of "form of life" and the relation of "form of life" to "language games", I believe that we are still operating while seeking to ignore the puzzle which remains as to just how "form of life" relates to "language game" other than as some amorphous "backdrop".. ..There is much more to this issue and to the far from automatic manner in which  a variety of "language games" arise from each of a variety of distinct 'forms of life".  The issue has to do with the manner in which "rules" or 'operations" are adopted by the participants. ..as the "language game " is shaped.  Moreover, the kind of "therapeutic" becoming familiar with the grammar of how we speak that Wittgenstein gives us is a crucial tool in our society coming to terms with how a form of life might give rise to one or another "language game" , with one or another set of rules and operations behind it.CJ" <wittrsamr@freelists  Wrote

sekhar   writesFor the means of knowledge to operate, it requires the notion of a
doer, and the notion of a doer is the result of superimposition on the
unattached brain. In other words, as soon as one falsely identifies the self as
a mind, i.e. an agent, or doer, then all fields that operate are in the field
of ignorance. Science, means of knowledge etc, since they require a distinct
doer, are therefore bound in the field of ignorance.
Data collected from various senses like eyes,touch,taste,smell and ears are all different and transitory in nature hence verbal sound is giving confirmation and certainty for them.In association with the sense data, knowledge is functioning so it appears to be a intrinsic organic whole.Here our LW come across and suggests a therapeutic value for the philosophical investigations.This what I could understand,You may suggest me if you feel I am wrong.
thank yousekhar                                           

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