[C] [Wittrs] Digest Number 113

  • From: WittrsAMR@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • To: WittrsAMR@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: 19 Jan 2010 10:40:31 -0000

Title: WittrsAMR

Messages In This Digest (8 Messages)

Messages

1a.

A Statement of Incompatibilities

Posted by: "Joseph Polanik" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:15 am (PST)



BruceD wrote:
> --- In Wittrs@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Polanik <jPolanik@...> wrote:
>
>> what needs unpacking now is the metaphor Dennett uses to describe the
>> true state of the self (which admittedly thinks of itself as a
> causally
>> effective agent). Dennett says that the self (that narrative center of
>> gravity that claims to be an agent) is like the press secretary who is
>> out of the decision-making loop.
>>
>> how can the out-of-the-loop press secretary be anything other than
>> epiphenomenal?
>>
>> how can a narrative center of gravity be causally effective at
> anything?
>
> The questions that have preoccupied me forever. However, it seems to be
> that Dennett's self is "causally effective" because it is causally
> produced by the brain. The "press secretary" is not out of the loop. It
> simple does whatever the brain causes it to do.

that's the same impression I get concerning Dennett's position; but,
that is precisely what makes the narrative center of gravity i
epiphenomenal.

IIRC, Huxley illustrated of epiphenomenalism by pointing to the whistle
produced by a steam locomotive. it is an effect of the engine; but, it
is not itself a cause.

if the engine is doing all the work, hauling all the freight; then, the
whistle is epiphenomenal.

similarly, if the brain is doing all the work and tells the press
secretary (the ghost writer in the machine) to crank out more material
for the narrative center of gravity; then, the narrative center of
gravity is epiphenomenal.

Joe

--

Nothing Unreal is Self-Aware

@^@~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~@^@
http://what-am-i.net
@^@~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~@^@

==========================================

Need Something? Check here: http://ludwig.squarespace.com/wittrslinks/

2.

Wittgenstein Workshop Speaker: Sebastian Roedl

Posted by: "Sean Wilson" whoooo26505@xxxxxxxxx   whoooo26505

Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:53 am (PST)



... from the Wittgenstein Worshop in Chicago:
======================================
 Dear All,

next Friday, Jan 22nd, the speaker at the Wittgenstein
Workshop will be:

SEBASTIAN ROEDL (Universität Basel)
“YOU AND I"
1:30-4:30, Cobb 106

Background reading is available on the WW website:
http://lucian.uchicago.edu/workshops/wittgenstein/

The paper will not be circulated in advance.
========================================

Dr. Sean Wilson, Esq.
Assistant Professor
Wright State University
Personal Website: http://seanwilson.org
SSRN papers: http://ssrn.com/author=596860
Discussion Group: http://seanwilson.org/wittgenstein.discussion.html

=========================================
Need Something? Check here: http://ludwig.squarespace.com/wittrslinks/

3.

Stuart on Dennett and Epiphenomenalism

Posted by: "gabuddabout" gabuddabout@xxxxxxxxx   gabuddabout

Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:59 pm (PST)



Stuart writes:

"But as of now, I see no necessary connection between a model like his [Dennett's] and the
idea of epiphenomenalism (that the conscious self has no causal effect on the
world) on the grounds I have previously presented, i.e., that the idea of a
self, on this model, is a complex one and that there is no reason to presume, on
this model, that the speaking self, the thinking self, is not also part of the
acting self, the causal self, etc."

For Dennett the "self" is a fiction. He equates the self with an outmoded "Cartesian theater." It's his way or the Cartesian theater. Searle wouldn't accept the either/or here. There are power grabs for Dennett among that which we interpret from the intentional stance without really believing in such a thing as intrinsic intentionality. Dennett notes that the power grabs can't be too chaotic or else.. So he wants multiple drafts of consciousness to be in the form of principled power grabs. I'm not too sure he is avoiding an humunculus mistake or being at all coherent when it comes to explaining Intentionality as that which explains how we can mean things and have beliefs in the first place.

He is either an eliminativist [he is] or an epiphenomenalist such that he wouldn't [or shouldn't but actually does] deny the phenomenality of conscious qualia although denying that, qua consciousness, there is no causal work being done at the conscious level where we ordinarily think that consciousness is effective in being a cause to reckon with in the real world--traffic signals wouldn't be all that effective if consciousness weren't.

The trick is to speak of intrinsic intentionality--not an 'as if' intentional stance a la Dennett. Wittgenstein influenced Dennett to such an epitemological degree that it seems there is an either/or (see above).

The hard part is how not to be either an eliminativist [Dennett] or an epiphenomenalist [Dennett when not an eliminativist].

Dennett is either an eliminativist or an epiphenomenalist.

Argue otherwise and you're really wanting Dennett to be as coherent as Searle! But I could be wrong.

Cheers,
Budd

4.

What is Consciousness Dennett-Style?

Posted by: "gabuddabout" gabuddabout@xxxxxxxxx   gabuddabout

Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:18 pm (PST)



Stuart writes:

"Well it looks like we are making some progress then. Are you now also agreeing
with Dennett's idea that consciousness is just lots of "virtual machines"
(computational programs) running on the massively parallel "hardware" that is
the brain, which is to say a conscious brain could at least theoretically be
constructed on a massively parallel computational platform running the right
kinds of programs in the right way. Note that Dennett's idea of the intentional
stance ties into that picture of how brains work to produce conscious minds!"

The trouble is that "virtual machines" names no natural kind. A virtual machine can be anything. Even though a purely functional description of a virtual computer describes nothing intrinsically real, it is good enough for an "intentional stance" such that thermostats have a degree of intrinsic intentionality (but only from the stance remember).

For scholars of Dennett's theory, it is to be noted that one of the advantages of the intentional stance is that we need not bother with bilogical brains as such. So no, his stance leaves the brain quite alone and has nothing to do with real biological research into how the brain causes and realizes intrinsically intentional states.

But Stuart wants to connect Dennett's research with the biology of brains. He holds out for Searle's position or just doesn't understand that the intentional stance amounts to eliminativism or epiphenomenalism--and that a priori given the definitional stance of the intentional stance.

Cheers,
Budd

5a.

Re: Dennett's Intentional Stance

Posted by: "gabuddabout" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:19 pm (PST)





--- In WittrsAMR@yahoogroups.com, "iro3isdx" <wittrsamr@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In Wittrs@yahoogroups.com, "BruceD" <blroadies@> wrote:
>
>
> > The Dennett quoted above doesn't sound like the Dennett presented
> > here.
>
> It's the same Dennett.
>
>
> > And just what is he demystifing?
>
> He is attempting to demystify intentionality. Those who see it as a
> bit of a mystery, including Searle, distinguish between original
> intentionality and derived intentionality. It is original
> intentionality that is taken to be mysterious. In "The Intentional
> Stance", Dennett is arguing that there is only derived intentionality,
> so there is no mystery.

Funny, but Searle offers a theory of Intentionality which involves intrinsic and derived intentionality. Just because Searle argues for intrinsic intentionality doesn't mean he is a mysterian about it! On the contrary: It is a mystery for Dennett how to account for intrinsic intentionality. Does one deny intrinsic intentionality by playing the ordinary language philosophy game? Note that linguistic practices cannot serve as premises for or against intrinsic intentionality. If they could, then it would be as if there need be no argument for intrinsic intentionality. It is assumed by the very fact that there is possible public discourse.

Cheers,
Budd

Ps. Is it okay to leave the rest below so that one sees that the above is concerned to make a little fun of seeing intentionality as mere attribution nonseriously or seriously meant?

>
>
> > I say he is questioning the need to view consciousness as either
> > the manifestation of some spirit or the causal end-product of a
> > neurological event.
>
> He is not discussing all of consciousness in that book. He is
> concerned only with intentionality (aboutness) which is usually seen as
> one aspect of consciousness. He is taking the position that
> intentionality is nothing more than attribution. That's a position
> often taken by AI people.
>
> Regards,
> Neil
>
> =========================================
> Need Something? Check here: http://ludwig.squarespace.com/wittrslinks/
>

=========================================
Need Something? Check here: http://ludwig.squarespace.com/wittrslinks/

5b.

Re: Dennett's Intentional Stance

Posted by: "iro3isdx" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:44 pm (PST)




--- In Wittrs@yahoogroups.com, "gabuddabout" <wittrsamr@...> wrote:

> Funny, but Searle offers a theory of Intentionality which involves
> intrinsic and derived intentionality.

Agreed. But it is a philosophical theory, not a scientific theory.
And, in my opinion, it leaves intentionality as a mystery.

> On the contrary: It is a mystery for Dennett how to account for
> intrinsic intentionality.

Dennett does give an account which could, in principle, be implemented
in an AI system. So Dennett is not making it a mystery. Of course
there is a question as to whether Dennett's account actually works, and
personally I am doubtful.

The above is a response to message 3976
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wittrs/message/3976> .

> Ps. Is it okay to leave the rest below ...

Sean would have to give the official answer. I prefer to see it
trimmed out. The previous message can be cited for the benefit of
anyone who wants to see it in full.

Regards,
Neil
6a.

reflections on the grammar of pictures pt.1

Posted by: "J D" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:45 pm (PST)



I thought I'd share with the group some of my own recent philosophical work, whatever small value it may have. It seemed like a worthwhile alternative or supplement to Wittgenstein exegesis or endless debates of this or that, to provide an example of how Wittgenstein's thinking has informed my own. What follows does not profess to represent Wittgenstein's views nor even what I might suppose Wittgenstein would have said, but I hope that something of Wittgenstein's approach will be recognizable. (And in more than just style, though similarity of style seems to arise unbidden in seeking to apply his methods.)

I'd welcome any questions, comments, corrections, or criticisms. (I might hope for specifically Wittgensteinian perspectives, though approaches that would be counted as Ordinary Language Philosophy generally or even classic Analytic Philosophy in a wide sense would be more than welcome. But any sort of feedback could be of value in some way or another, regardless of the point of view.)

If I may, I'd also like to encourage any other participants who'd like to share examples of Wittgenstein's influence on their thinking.

Analogies between pictures and language.

(I am using "picture" in a narrower sense than Wittgenstein's. I mean "pictures" more as it would be used in everyday English: drawings, paintings, photographs and the like. And specifically, those drawings and paintings that would be called "figurative" or "pictorial".)

There are picture languages. Ideograms, pictograms, rebuses, pictorial elements in sign(gesture)languages. Perhaps even cinematic techniques such as montage could be usefully compared to (spoken and written) languages. Also we might wish to compare the rules governing pictures (drawings and paintings) in various styles to grammars.

Here I am more specifically concerned with what could be called "representation" or "depiction", in pictures and in (spoken and written) language. In what sense do pictures "refer"? What is the "grammar" (in the Wittenstein's sense) of pictures' referring.

A painting of NN." "A drawing of NN." "A photograph of NN." With the similarity of the expressions may fail to be struck by the very different rules governing their use. It is not, as one might suppose, as if the same rules were simply applied and the technology were a quite separate matter.

If I hire a model whose likeness is comparable to George Washington, first President of the United States, dress him in authentic period costume, pose him with suitable props for the place and period, and paint him, I can rightly call this a painting of George Washington.

If I do the same, except that I then photograph the model, it is not a photograph of George Washington!

It may be called "a photograph depicting George Washington." And where "depicting" seems needlessly verbose in "a painting depicting George Washington", it makes all the difference in talking of a photograph.

A child draws a stick figure we strain to recognize as a figure holding an axe and the figure is saying to another, "I cannot tell a lie, I chopped down the cherry tree."

Here, though we couldn't speak of a "likeness" and the story to which the drawing alludes is apocryphal, the drawing is still very much a drawing of George Washington.

The intention of the artist seems decisive in such a case.

But perhaps she identifies the drawing to her teacher as "Ben Franklin"? Perhaps she also draws another stick figure flying a kite with a key attached in a thunderstorm and calls this "George Washington"?

We can easily imagine such a mistake. But what are we to make of it?

Her teacher might well say, "That's not Ben Franklin. It's George Washington," rejecting the child's description of her drawing. Would he be wrong to say that?

Here, the use of "George Washington" is something like, "the man who did, or is commonly purported to have done, such and such".

Perhaps he'll simply explain to her that she has gotten the names and stories mixed up and comfort her by saying that the mistake is easily rectified, say by pinning the drawing of the figure with the axe among the drawings other students did, which they called "George Washington". Perhaps these are also drawings of the cherry tree story, perhaps also drawings of a figure crossing a river in a boat, and suchlike.

And perhaps the figure flying the kite will be pinned up alongside pictures of a round faced, balding man with spectacles, and so on, all labeled "Ben Franklin".

Such would be the easiest way to salvage the work - and the child's feelings - and it needn't involve a challenge to the child's intentions. That is to say, it needn't involve a choice between ascribing to the child false beliefs about George Washington or false beliefs about whom she drew.

If the assignment was not "draw one of the 'Founding Fathers'", but rather, "draw George Washington", and the child presented the drawing of the figure with the kite as "George Washington", confident in her completion of the assignment?

If he says, "George Washington never did that. You've confused him with Ben Franklin", that's perfectly right as far as it goes. And as a practical matter, he may need go no further.

As part of an exercise in learning the use of names, there may not be a "right" answer to the question, "Was she mistaken about whom she had drawn or mistaken about whether the person she drew had done such a thing?" Perhaps she has not yet learned enough for such a question to apply.

What else does she need to learn?

Is this painting of a woman holding a severed head a depiction of Judith with the head of Holofernes or of Salome with the head of John the Baptist?
(Erwin Panofsky, "Iconography and Iconology" in _Meaning_in_the_Visual_Arts_ )

Here, the answer to this question is assumed to be the same as the answer to the question, "What was the artist's intention?" But the artist's intentions are the very question in dispute.

That the answer to the first question might also be "both" - or "neither" - is suppressed in Panofsky. But the possibility of such ambiguity need not shift the emphasis away from the artist's intention.

Where ambiguity in our answer to the questions posed by the child's drawing acknowledges her lack of sophistication, ambiguity in the painter's case involves considering greater sophistication. The painter versed in the symbolism of his time (and symbolisms of times familiar to him) may deliberately exploit them to make matters unclear. Or is that anachronistic here?

Or the design possibilities and visceral appeal of the image may hold such primacy for the artist, as to leave the "subject" (Judith or Salome) undecided even in his own mind.

Where we can turn to secondary documentation (etymologically-speaking, a pleonasm, as Panofsky notes elsewhere) - contemporary correspondence, commissions, and such - to settle matters, the competence of the artist (and others) in using the names appropriately is presupposed. The very thing we cannot presuppose in the child's case.

But in some cases, historical scholarship might call into question the availability to artists and others of the period of religious, historical, and other literature. Whether "so and so did this and that" would be part of their standards for the correct use of "so and so" might be a matter for further inquiry.

Where such documents as correspondence and the like are unavailable for interpreting the painting in question, where we must turn to methods such as Panofsky's of comparing the use of various symbols across depictions of various subjects in various works of a given period and region, we are also addressing some of the same questions as historical scholarship concerning literary sources would address. That paintings (recognized as being) of NN in a given period portray NN as such and such, as doing this and that, give us criteria for recognizing other portrayals of NN.

But ambiguity is a clear possibility here, and Panofsky's work famously answers this ambiguity positing a previously unrecognized type of Judith image. The suppressed possibility of deliberate ambiguity on the artist's part turns on the same possibility of conflicting symbolism.

What if the child had drawn a figure standing in a rowboat crossing a river during an electrical storm holding a kite?

Jastrow's duck-rabbit. We can imagine an artist creating such an ambiguous drawing without intending to draw anything other than a duck. And the possibility that it could also be seen as a rabbit might not occur to her.

Suppose she has made a series of illustrations for a children's book. Through miscommunication, the editor has the duck drawing placed as an illustration of a chapter about a rabbit. Perhaps he even places the same drawing as well in the chapter about a duck, where it was intended to go. We can imagine him not even realizing that the same drawing has been used twice. (Astute children might notice and perhaps attentive parents will credit the artist with a clever joke.)

Has the editor made a mistake in taking the drawing for a drawing of a rabbit? Certainly, he has mistaken the artist's intentions, used her work in a manner other than she intended.

I want to say: his mistake is not like the mistake of taking the drawing for an elephant. But what would such a mistake be like? How do we imagine that?

The drawing could be used to illustrate a rabbit or to illustrate a duck. And if we set the artist's intentions to one side, we might be tempted to say, "The subject of the drawing is the use to which it is put." But how would we use this drawing as an illustration of an elephant? How is it like an elephant? According to what system of projection?

Perhaps someone could imagine some system of projection according to which it would make perfect sense to say it is picture of an elephant.

(In Tim Hawkinson "Self-Portrait (Height Determined by Weight)", the system of projection is the artist's own invention.)

A military historian analyzing movements in Revolutionary battles may use an arbitrary mark to represent General Washington's position. But we would not call such a mark a "picture" - though we may call it a "picture-element".

The drawings and paintings we have of Mozart agree on very little regarding the composer's appearance. Contrast to pictures of his contemporaries (Think of Haydn. Or later, Beethoven or Schubert) - where they may be recognized across different portraits as well as from their written descriptions. With pictures of Mozart, we accept the title of the work. Or we recognize the young man performing with his sister and father or other elements of Mozart's story. In this respect, Mozart could be compared to a figure of mythology.

(This somehow seems appropriate.)

Could there be no photographs of George Washington?

Very far-fetched scenarios could be imagined. Extra-terrestrials visited the Earth during the 18th century and took photographs. Some genius invented the camera but the invention and all records of it were lost to history. Quite by accident, appropriate chemical are spilled onto a piece of paper and Washington sits in an adjacent room. A tiny hole in the wall between the rooms functions as a camera's aperture...

Suppose Washington's remains were photographed. (The controversy over moving his remains preceded the invention of photography by less than a decade.) Would we call this "a photograph of George Washington"?

A clone is made from a sample of Washington's DNA. A photograph of such a clone would no more be a photograph of Washington than a photograph of one identical twin is actually a photograph of the other.

But we could easily imagine mistaking a photograph of one identical twin for a photograph of another. Or any doppelganger.

If a man's twin shows up at the photographer's studio, the photographer's intentions have no bearing on whether the photograph taken is a photograph of the man or his twin.

The man goes missing and a photograph of his twin is used by searchers to identify him. Such a use does not make the photograph into a photograph of him.

But we can say that the photograph in this case "represents" the man. And a "photograph representing Washington" is entirely possible.

Photographs can be "altered" or "doctored". So can drawings and paintings. But how different are the uses of these expressions in the different cases!

A photograph can be discovered to be "a fake", as can a painting, but the cases are quite distinct.

A photograph can be "staged". Can a painting? Certainly, it makes sense to say that Leonardo's "The Last Supper" looks staged - in contrast to, say a Dutch genre painting.

But note that "looks" is not used as when one might say, "That looks blue, but I'd have to see it in a better light." What further evidence might one await? Nor yet is "looks" being used to acknowledge a contrast between appearance and reality.

Should we say that all (figurative) paintings are "staged" but that only some look it? I wouldn't say that...

(to be continued, work in progress)

JPDeMouy

=========================================
Need Something? Check here: http://ludwig.squarespace.com/wittrslinks/

6b.

Re: reflections on the grammar of pictures pt.1

Posted by: "Sean Wilson" whoooo26505@xxxxxxxxx   whoooo26505

Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:50 pm (PST)



... a couple of reactions (not quite sure what you are looking for)

1. I noticed a similar issue when speaking to my daughter about Harry Potter. This was when, after all the books were out, the author came out and said "Dumbledore is gay." My daughter then had said to me, "Dumbledore is gay!" And I said to her, "Now wait a minute. You have read the books? [yes]. All of them? [yes]. And did you know that Dumbledore was gay before this news story?" She replied something to the effect of "no," but it did help expound upon certain things. So what the declaration did was, in effect, put another picture in her head. Prior to reading it, she had other pictures. And had the author said that Dumbledore wasn't gay, those other (friendship) pictures would have worked just fine.

And so now the philosophic question: was Dumbledore really gay? In other words, can an author declare something that isn't otherwise declared? Can the story change after publishing? (In law, the view that Dumbledore is only ever what is in the book, is called "textualist.").

Imagine the author saying of Harry Potter, "I've decided to write an 8th novel. In this novel, Harry awakes from bed. It was all a dream. He never was a wizard." What would one do with this? If the 8th novel is written, I suppose it means what it says. But let's say she says, "this is the way it really is" without writing it. Does it make it so?

2. I think this game confuses affect with declaration. The one is the learned way to receive art and the other is the power to pronounce things. The confusion arises because aesthetics commonly teaches the learning of affect by bowing to artists. In other words, to appreciate art properly, you have to learn how to receive it. This is the teaching of an aesthetic. Once the aesthetical criteria is learned, that alone is what the behavior of art appreciation is (the indulgence of the criteria). And so, because we frequently have to learn the criteria from the artistically gifted, we confuse this with the idea that they have power of declaration -- to simply say what is the case, outside of the aesthetic criteria. What I want to say is: what the author declares is irrelevant if it is not part of the criteria for enjoyment (aesthetic criteria).

So if an artist says, "that's and X," when you are seeing "Y," the only issue is whether his seeing X is part of the aesthetic criteria for appreciating the art. One wants to say here: be very careful before telling Beethoven the note is wrong. But absent this, we could say to one: I don't take the Potter stories that way. (We have this power because we know what it means to enjoy them. We understand the genre).     

Stickman drawings from children are different because the activity is different. It is PLAY, not art appreciation. The children tries to draw, and whatever it is has value in the same way as when she mispronounces words. So I would set the activity of play aside from the activity of enjoying art.

... just off the top of my head, J!

Dr. Sean Wilson, Esq.
Assistant Professor
Wright State University
Personal Website: http://seanwilson.org
SSRN papers: http://ssrn.com/author=596860
Discussion Group: http://seanwilson.org/wittgenstein.discussion.html

=========================================
Need Something? Check here: http://ludwig.squarespace.com/wittrslinks/

Recent Activity
Visit Your Group
Yahoo! News

Odd News

You won't believe

it, but it's true

Check out the

Y! Groups blog

Stay up to speed

on all things Groups!

Yahoo! Groups

Mental Health Zone

Mental Health

Learn More

Need to Reply?

Click one of the "Reply" links to respond to a specific message in the Daily Digest.

Create New Topic | Visit Your Group on the Web

Other related posts:

  • » [C] [Wittrs] Digest Number 113 - WittrsAMR