[C] [Wittrs] Digest Number 103

  • From: WittrsAMR@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • To: WittrsAMR@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: 11 Jan 2010 04:37:56 -0000

Title: WittrsAMR

Messages In This Digest (25 Messages)

Messages

1.1.

Re: Consciousness and Quantum Mechanics

Posted by: "Cayuse" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:01 am (PST)



BruceD wrote:
> "Cayuse" wrote:
>>> Joseph Polanik wrote:
>>> if you deny the collapse postulate; then, you end up with the MWI.
>
> Please, what is the collapse postulate, and what is MWL?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

>> When a particle interacts with another particle and the state vector
>> is reduced, would you claim consciousness for one of the particles
>> (or even both of them)?
>
> Is it the particles that become conscious?

I'm trying to understand Joe's insistence on bringing consciousness
into quantum theory, and the above is my question to him.

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1.2.

Re: Consciousness and Quantum Mechanics Meme

Posted by: "jrstern" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:30 am (PST)



--- In Wittrs@yahoogroups.com, "Cayuse" <z.z7@...> wrote:
>
> I'm trying to understand Joe's insistence on bringing consciousness
> into quantum theory, and the above is my question to him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wigner's_friend
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_causes_collapse

It's an old meme,
that current discussion is unlikely to
shine any further light on.

ObW: it all should have been quite familiar to the later
Wittgenstein, and one can entertain oneself looking for
the occassional cryptic reference to quantum uncertainty
and observer-caused-wave-collapse in PI.

(I can cite none offhand, but have vague impressions of
having seen some, and that is how much I care about it)

Josh

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2.

Knowledge and belief

Posted by: "void" rgoteti@xxxxxxxxx   rgoteti

Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:44 am (PST)



Knowledge and belief

After the 1970s Davidson's philosophy of mind picked up influences from the work of Saul Kripke, Hilary Putnam, and Keith Donnellan, all of whom had proposed a number of troubling counter-examples to what can be generally described as "descriptivist" theories of content. These views, which roughly originate in Bertrand Russell's Theory of Descriptions (and perhaps in the younger Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus) held that the referent of a name?which object or person that name refers to?is determined by the beliefs a person holds about that object. Suppose I believe "Aristotle founded the Lyceum" and "Aristotle taught Alexander the Great." Whom are my beliefs about? Aristotle, obviously. But why? Russell would say that my beliefs are about whatever object makes the greatest number of them true. If two people taught Alexander, but only one founded the Lyceum, then my beliefs are about the one who did both. Kripke et al. argued that this was not a tenable theory, and that in fact whom or what a person's beliefs were about was in large part (or entirely) a matter of how they had acquired those beliefs, and those names, and how if at all the use of those names could be traced "causally" from their original referents to the current speaker.

Davidson picked up this theory, and his work in the 1980s dealt with the problems in relating first-person beliefs to second- and third-person beliefs. It seems that first person beliefs ("I am hungry") are acquired in very different ways from third person beliefs (someone else's belief, of me, that "He is hungry") How can it be that they have the same content?

Davidson approached this question by connecting it with another one: how can two people have beliefs about the same external object? He offers, in answer, a picture of triangulation: Beliefs about oneself, beliefs about other people, and beliefs about the world come into existence jointly.

Many philosophers throughout history had, arguably, been tempted to reduce two of these kinds of belief and knowledge to the other one: Descartes and Hume thought that the only knowledge we start with is self-knowledge. Some of the logical positivists, (and some would say Wittgenstein, or Wilfrid Sellars), held that we start with beliefs only about the external world. (And arguably Friedrich Schelling and Emmanuel Levinas held that we start with beliefs only about other people). It is not possible, on Davidson's view, for a person to have only one of these three kinds of mental content; anyone who has beliefs of one of the kinds must have beliefs of the other two kinds.

Answers.com
Davidson influenced by Wittgenstein

3a.

Consciousness, QM and the Vacuous Question

Posted by: "Joseph Polanik" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:09 pm (PST)



Cayuse wrote:

>Joseph Polanik wrote:

>>Cayuse wrote:

>>>I'm questioning the need to invoke consciousness as the agent of
>>>state vector reduction.

>>I know that you are; and, I've tried to clarify whether your
>>questioning is vacuous by asking whether you deny the collapse
>>postulate.

>>obviously, if you deny that there is a collapse of the wave function;
>>then, you don't need to explain how that happens.

>>instead, you would need to explain how measuring a particle produces a
>>definite outcome without a collapse of the wave function.

>>so, once again, do you deny the collapse postulate?

>And once again, I'm questioning the need to invoke consciousness as
>its agent.

once again your question is vacuous from the point of view of Zurek's
theory (which *you* introduced for discussion).

Zurek denies the collapse postulate; so, the relevant question for (his
variation of) the MWI of QM is 'what causes the universe to branch when
a measurement is made? if not consciousness, then what?'

Joe

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3b.

Re: Consciousness, QM and the Vacuous Question

Posted by: "Cayuse" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:42 pm (PST)



Joseph Polanik wrote:
> Cayuse wrote:
>> And once again, I'm questioning the need to invoke consciousness as
>> its agent.
>
> once again your question is vacuous from the point of view of Zurek's
> theory (which *you* introduced for discussion).
>
> Zurek denies the collapse postulate; so, the relevant question for
> (his variation of) the MWI of QM is 'what causes the universe to
> branch when a measurement is made? if not consciousness, then what?'

You'll probably be well aware by now that I'm uneasy with the idea of
conjoining quantum theory with consciousness. Permit me to put Zurek aside
and present my reservations, starting by assuming the claim that concerns me
(i.e. that consciousness causes collapse).

Say that two particles are entangled such that consciousness of the state of
one of the particles also collapses the state of the other. Each of these
two particles may become the respective contents of two separate
consciousnesses, the first such observation causing collapse of the ensemble
and thereby determining the outcome of the second observation.

Say, also, that a reference frame may be chosen where observationX precedes
observationY, and a reference frame may be chosen where observationY
precedes observationX. Now it seems to me that which consciousness 'caused'
the collapse is reference frame dependent. The question occurs to me:
why should both consciousnesses cause the same kind of collapse?
Is there an error in my reasoning here?

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3c.

Re: Consciousness, QM and the Vacuous Question

Posted by: "Justintruth" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:15 pm (PST)



I don't get it.

Isn't it true the the "collapse" is just a decrease in uncertainty? If
I flip a coin and ask you what the probability of a head was you would
say 50-50. Then I show you the answer and the "collapse" occurs. That
has nothing to do with quantum mechanics. The only difference between
that situation and quantum mechanics is that a single object model no
longer exists prior to your observation in the case of quantum
mechanics.

But the question of the reality of that object model also predates the
existence of quantum mechanics by a very long time. During the time
prior to even classical Newtonian mechanics rudimentary reflections on
the meaning of physics, or before physics just "things", led to
questions about appearing, being, object and subjectivity and all of
the associated "if a tree falls.... type problems". In fact the
problems predate even classical physics itself. So the lack of an
object model or presence of an object model in science (physics) is
not really relevant. The problem exists whether you admit a coherent
object model to physics or not. The problem exists with objectivity
per se.

Watching people strain to maintain some semblance of an object model
in physics when the very nature of objectivity can be exposed to a
withering critique independent of any scientific analysis - and has
for all of Western history - is crazy.

The "observation" problem has nothing to do with quantum mechanics per
se. It has been there all along and is fundamental to experimental
science all of which is based on observations which are dependent on
consciousness.

And the fact that an object model cannot be established based solely
on observation was also documented. Take Kant for an example, or go
back even farther. Or look at Vedic philosophies, or Zen or - well -
just look anywhere where anyone has had a look at it.

With respect to physics I think we just need to know what the physical
meaning of the "appearing of a particle" means. For example if I use a
photon cascade detector then the point at which the cascade is
initiated and the energy transfer to the first electron, here
conceived of as a particle, occurs along with the knowledge of the
associated detector design allows me to predict my experience of the
detector within the limits of the theory and forms the basis for the
predictions necessary to confirm the theory in experiment.

I agree that it does not allow a complete prediction but philosophical
questions about the meaning of the theory will never be able to add
predictive capability to the scientific theory. The uncertainty will
remain as long as the essent continues its correspondence with current
theory. One thing for sure, it is God that decides whether he throws
dice and he could in principle even change his mind!

Are we completely unaware of our own philosophical tradition so much
so that conversations about the reality of the detector and its
relations to consciousness seem dependent on some aspect of, well
actually not even recent, scientific inquiry?

And how would physics proceed if it were required to strip itself of
object modeling completely? All of the terminology would collapse. As
far as I know all of these quantum theories are all kind of field
theories and the very existence of any field at all is a kind of
spatial objective entity - whether they blink in and out of existence
or not.

It seems to me that objectivity is a possibility for thought and, due
to the nature of the essent, can be used to produce statements with
astounding correspondence, predictive even, within narrow limits which
themselves can be established only through its use. That having been
said even an undergraduate philosophy student is exposed to the
intellectual problems with objectivity in the naive sense and the
limitations it has in explaining experience in general - the need for
the notion of the subject and even the limitations of the subject-
object distinction in comprehending the meaning of physical theory be
it classical or modern.

All of these questions lie at the root of either classical or quantum
theories and the presence of modern physics, in particular the wave
particle duality and the relativity of time implied by the Lorentz
metric, while establishing them as somewhat counter-intuitive
nevertheless add little to the philosophical problems associated with
the meaning of reality per se.

I just don't get it. Especially when there is real philosophical work
left to do.

On Jan 10, 3:42 pm, "Cayuse" <z...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Joseph Polanik wrote:
> > Cayuse wrote:
> >> And once again, I'm questioning the need to invoke consciousness as
> >> its agent.
>
> > once again your question is vacuous from the point of view of Zurek's
> > theory (which *you* introduced for discussion).
>
> > Zurek denies the collapse postulate; so, the relevant question for
> > (his variation of) the MWI of QM is 'what causes the universe to
> > branch when a measurement is made? if not consciousness, then what?'
>
> You'll probably be well aware by now that I'm uneasy with the idea of
> conjoining quantum theory with consciousness. Permit me to put Zurek aside
> and present my reservations, starting by assuming the claim that concerns me
> (i.e. that consciousness causes collapse).
>
> Say that two particles are entangled such that consciousness of the state of
> one of the particles also collapses the state of the other. Each of these
> two particles may become the respective contents of two separate
> consciousnesses, the first such observation causing collapse of the ensemble
> and thereby determining the outcome of the second observation.
>
> Say, also, that a reference frame may be chosen where observationX precedes
> observationY, and a reference frame may be chosen where observationY
> precedes observationX. Now it seems to me that which consciousness 'caused'
> the collapse is reference frame dependent. The question occurs to me:
> why should both consciousnesses cause the same kind of collapse?
> Is there an error in my reasoning here?
>
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3d.

Consciousness, QM and the Vacuous Question

Posted by: "Joseph Polanik" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sun Jan 10, 2010 4:00 pm (PST)



Cayuse wrote:

>You'll probably be well aware by now that I'm uneasy with the idea of
>conjoining quantum theory with consciousness. Permit me to put Zurek
>aside and present my reservations, starting by assuming the claim that
>concerns me (i.e. that consciousness causes collapse).

>Say that two particles are entangled such that consciousness of the
>state of one of the particles also collapses the state of the other.
>Each of these two particles may become the respective contents of two
>separate consciousnesses, the first such observation causing collapse
>of the ensemble and thereby determining the outcome of the second
>observation.

>Say, also, that a reference frame may be chosen where observationX
>precedes observationY, and a reference frame may be chosen where
>observationY precedes observationX. Now it seems to me that which
>consciousness 'caused' the collapse is reference frame dependent. The
>question occurs to me: why should both consciousnesses cause the same
>kind of collapse? Is there an error in my reasoning here?

when two particles are entangled, they behave as if there is a single
superposition shared between them; thus, there is only one measurement
and one collapse. once one particle of the pair is measured a definite
value is obtained and the other particle of the pair instantaneously
takes on the corresponding value.

the type of experiment that concerns you is called a before-before
experiment, a state-of-the art methodology combining QM and special
relativity.

I suggest that you take a look at a paper by Suarez, Nonlocal
"Realistic" Leggett Models Can be Considered Refuted by the
Before-Before Experiment. http://www.quantumphil.org/SuarezFOOP201R2.pdf

it reports an experiment testing whether theories of non-local hidden
variable theories violate Leggett's inequality. Leggett's inequality is
similar to Bell's inequality but tailored for tests of claims about
measurements conducted in some time sequence. as with Bell's inequality,
non-local hidden variable theories are predicted to observe the
inequality whereas standard quantum mechanical theories (Copenhagen, von
Neumann) predict violations of the inequality.

violations were observed.

as a consequence, another class of hidden variable theories (including
Bohmian mechanics) have been experimentally falsified.

do you recall the paper on the Strong Free-Will Theorem I mentioned a
while back? In it Conway and Kochen use a before-before analysis to
indicate that GRW type (spontaneous collapse) theories are incompatible
with the predictions of QM.

naturally the Many Worlds Interpretation can also explain the observed
results without a collapse by saying that all possible results occur but
each in its own universe.

Joe

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3e.

Re: Consciousness, QM and the Vacuous Question

Posted by: "BruceD" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sun Jan 10, 2010 4:30 pm (PST)




--- In Wittrs@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Polanik <jPolanik@...> wrote:

> Zurek denies the collapse postulate; so, the relevant question for
(his
> variation of) the MWI of QM is 'what causes the universe to branch
when
> a measurement is made? if not consciousness, then what?'

Please explain what it means say "the universe has branched." Are you
suggesting that this "branching" is the result of us being conscious?
And if so, if consciousness does do that, whatever that is, what
implication does it have for conceiving the relationship between mind
and brain (assuming that it does have an implication)?

Thanks,

bruce

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4.

Consciousness, QM and the Quagmire of Ambiguity

Posted by: "Joseph Polanik" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:28 pm (PST)



Cayuse wrote:

>Joseph Polanik wrote:

>>as far as I can tell, Zurek is running together his analysis of two
>>processes. both of which are called 'decoherence'.

>>one use of decoherence explains emergence of an apparently classical
>>reality. environmental monitoring transfers information about a
>>macroscopic object into its environment (*in this universe*).

>And without invoking consciousness.

Zurek doesn't need to invoke consciousness (or anything else) to branch
the universe when there is no branching.

are you saying the universe branches whenever a stray particle helps
environmentally monitor a cat?

>>the other use of decoherence comes about when Zurek denies the
>>collapse postulate and develops his version of the Multiple Worlds
>>Interpretation.

>When a particle interacts with another particle and the state vector is
>reduced, would you claim consciousness for one of the particles (or
>even both of them)?

I do not claim consciousness for particles under any circumstances.

>And if not, then where is consciousness implicated in state vector
>reduction? It's still not clear to me what need there is now to
>rope-in consciousness as the agent of state vector reduction.

>Can you clarify?

not while you insist on wallowing in a quagmire of ambiguity.

clarify this:

do you see any difference between the process that monitors the cat
without branching the universe and the process that branches the
universe when a measurement is made? if not, you are being bewitched by
the Zurek's sloppy habit of using 'decoherence' to name both processes.

Joe

--

Nothing Unreal is Self-Aware

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5a.

Essences versus Framework

Posted by: "Sean Wilson" whoooo26505@xxxxxxxxx   whoooo26505

Sun Jan 10, 2010 4:18 pm (PST)



Frequently, philosophers debate the idea of something having an "essence." Some like the idea and others don't. The idea of "essence" is to find an immutable thing or a "fundamental property," or a necessary and sufficient condition, that comprises the thing in question. But it just occurred to me on a philosophy project I am working on that the term "framework" seems to do away with the problems of the talk of essences.

Consider. What is the essence of "chair?" This is a problematic question. But it is much less problematic to say what framework does a "chair" have? The answer is sitting. And so the one thing that all "chairs" have in common is being used as a seating device. This isn't a definition. It doesn't mean that anything you can sit on is a "chair;" it's a framework.  It means that all those things we call "chairs" are seating items.

Consider another family-resemblance word: "games." What is the essence of games? We don't know. What is the framework for things we call "games?" Answer: playing. Show me a game that isn't played. Once again, this isn't a definition -- we play instruments, too. But it is the one thing that family resemblance items have in common.
  
Consider: what is a Kennedy? It's a stipulated-rule for a family membership. We stipulate that the offspring of X and Y, or adoptions, count. That's the framework. And each individual member of "Kennedy" may or may not have certain features -  wealth, teeth and hair -- but each is still different and bears family resemblance to each other. And so, the things we call "Kennedy" are a cluster of things with a shared framework.

Can we replace talk of essence with framework?

P.S. -- I just stuck it in my paper, so if not, do a favor and help an old man out.
 
Dr. Sean Wilson, Esq.
Assistant Professor
Wright State University
Personal Website: http://seanwilson.org
SSRN papers: http://ssrn.com/author=596860
Discussion Group: http://seanwilson.org/wittgenstein.discussion.html

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5b.

Re: Essences versus Framework

Posted by: "J D" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sun Jan 10, 2010 4:53 pm (PST)



SW,

Quick reply to this while I work on reply on the transitional Wittgenstein.

It seems to me that there's a lot in your use of "framework" that has affinities with the idea of defining by genera and differentia, rather than by necessary and sufficient conditions. At least some of your examples might suggest that in offering the framework in which a word finds its use, you are offering a generum of which the term may serve as a differentium.

Does this replace essences?

As Wittgenstein notes, any explanation of a rule can be misunderstood. That is always a possibility. Such an instruction in the use of a word might work in some instances and not in others. I'm not sure what else one could mean by asking whether one way of speaking could replace another in this context.

JPDeMouy

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5c.

Re: Essences versus Framework

Posted by: "void" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:04 pm (PST)




>
> Can we replace talk of essence with framework?
>

>  
> Dr. Sean Wilson, Esq.
> Assistant Professor
> Wright State University
> Personal Website: http://seanwilson.org
> SSRN papers: http://ssrn.com/author=596860
> Discussion Group: http://seanwilson.org/wittgenstein.discussion.html
>
> Dear sir
Some questions before to proceed
What is the element which helps to organise framework?
Is it not that element also within the framework?
What is the element which recognise the frame work and tries to reorganise?

This is my formula or hypotheses in my opinion

SOUND + Symbol = verbal sound
This functions over combinations and permutations.
Combination attained kinetic energy
This energy functions in between opposites like yes - NO

thank you
sekhar
>
>
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5d.

Re: Essences versus Framework

Posted by: "Sean Wilson" whoooo26505@xxxxxxxxx   whoooo26505

Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:30 pm (PST)



(J)

I don't like the use of the term "definition." If i say that the one thing that all the things we call "chairs" have in common is their utility for seating, it can't be a definition because other things having seating utility are not "chairs." In other words, it doesn't give any power to confer. If I define by genus, the rule for admission -- e.g., having tails -- grants admission, does it not? Here's what I am trying to say: I have not created a taxonomy for things with seating utility versus things not having seating utility. Rather, I have simply observed what framework it is that all "chairs" have in common.

I have, in a way, identified the psychological parentage of "chair."     

I agree that people can "define" in many ways -- negation, example, etc.,  --  but don't we end up with a strange sense of the idea if we allow it in situations where it does not to confer or grant admission? Not to cut a boundary, so to speak?

What all chairs have in common is a framework for seating. Couches are different because they do not share that framework. There is no "essence" for "chair," there is only the psychological frame of reference.

Regards. 
 
Dr. Sean Wilson, Esq.
Assistant Professor
Wright State University
Personal Website: http://seanwilson.org
SSRN papers: http://ssrn.com/author=596860
Discussion Group: http://seanwilson.org/wittgenstein.discussion.html

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5e.

Re: Essences versus Framework versus Causal

Posted by: "jrstern" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:33 pm (PST)



--- In Wittrs@yahoogroups.com, "J D" <wittrsamr@...> wrote:
>
> SW,
>
> Quick reply to this while I work on reply on the transitional Wittgenstein.
>
> It seems to me that there's a lot in your use of "framework" that has affinities with the idea of defining by genera and differentia, rather than by necessary and sufficient conditions. At least some of your examples might suggest that in offering the framework in which a word finds its use, you are offering a generum of which the term may serve as a differentium.
>
> Does this replace essences?
>
> As Wittgenstein notes, any explanation of a rule can be misunderstood. That is always a possibility. Such an instruction in the use of a word might work in some instances and not in others. I'm not sure what else one could mean by asking whether one way of speaking could replace another in this context.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by genera and differentia,
but either that or another system would be type/token.

But certainly the most trendy or popular or newest fashion
would probably follow from Kripke's causal theories, or modal
logic, or whatever it is we are supposed to learn from Naming and
Necessity - which in some circles is after all just seen as a kind
of neo-essentialism anyway.

I'm not sure what a good Wittgensteinian wants to make of any
of these, but there they are.

Josh

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5f.

Re: Essences versus Framework

Posted by: "J D" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:14 pm (PST)



SW,

> I don't like the use of the term "definition."

I've noticed. But be aware that "definition" is itself a word who various uses are connected by family resemblance.

> If i say that the one thing that all the things we call "chairs" have in common is their utility for seating, it can't be a definition because other things having seating utility are not "chairs."

Well, I'd also point out that there are chairs that most certainly do not have utility for seating, e.g. chairs that are created as objet d'art and could not actually bear the weight of a person. Or chairs that are tiny precious metal pendants. Or doll house chairs.

Then there is the usage of "chair" in place of "chairman".

Who says that a definition must preclude all such variants in order to be useful?

> I agree that people can "define" in many ways -- negation, example, etc.,  --  but don't we end up with a strange sense of the idea if we allow it in situations where it does not to confer or grant admission? Not to cut a boundary, so to speak?

But that is drawing a boundary. Which is fine, so long as one is clear about the purpose for which such a boundary is to be drawn and so long as one recognizes the extent to which such a boundary differs from other, established usages.

JPDeMouy

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5g.

Re: Essences versus Framework

Posted by: "Sean Wilson" whoooo26505@xxxxxxxxx   whoooo26505

Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:35 pm (PST)



(J)

1. I can't accept "chairman," because that introduces polysemy into the picture, which does nothing but cause a traffic accident. And I can't accept doll chairs, because they are indeed beholden to the searing framework and amount to a prejudice against little people. The picture of a chair is interesting, but it, too, seems amenable to the seating framework. So does a chair made of nails.

However, considering your views has made me discover a counter-example.  Bloody lounge chairs! http://keetsa.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/lounge-chair.jpg

If logic is hell, language is a bitch.       

Dr. Sean Wilson, Esq.
Assistant Professor
Wright State University
Personal Website: http://seanwilson.org
SSRN papers: http://ssrn.com/author=596860
Discussion Group: http://seanwilson.org/wittgenstein.discussion.html

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5h.

Re: Essences versus Framework

Posted by: "J D" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:01 pm (PST)




SWM,

One person's polysemy is another's family resemblance. "Polysemy" is itself not a precisely defined concept. I grant your distinction but it's important to note the boundary is quite fluid.

I'd never say that a picture of X counts as an X, except, e.g. where a picture of a work of art might itself be a work of art. A picture of a chair is certainly not a chair unless it is, e.g. a chair with an image of a chair engraved on it.

By "objet d'art" I meant chairs made from flimsy, fragile, or otherwise unsuitable materials for decorative or otherwise artistic purposes. In the same way that pottery may be made with the intention that it should never actually be used for storage, serving food, and so forth.

Prejudice against little people? Is prejudice against people under an inch tall a pressing issue in our society? Many doll house miniatures do not even have corresponding dolls, so there may be nothing that is meant to sit in the chairs.

JPDeMouy

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5i.

Re: Essences versus Framework versus Causal

Posted by: "J D" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:10 pm (PST)



JRS,

> I'm not quite sure what you mean by genera and differentia,

A fairly good explanation can be found here

http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Genus:differentia:definition.html

> but either that or another system would be type/token.

Well, yes, chairs could be called a type but also a token of those types of things upon which we sit. I'm not sure how that phraseology clarifies matters though. Perhaps you could elaborate?

> But certainly the most trendy or popular or newest fashion
> would probably follow from Kripke's causal theories, or modal
> logic, or whatever it is we are supposed to learn from Naming and
> Necessity - which in some circles is after all just seen as a kind
> of neo-essentialism anyway.

I believe that "chair" would be considered a "functional kind" and so not fit into such a framework, concerned as it is with proper names and "natural kinds".

JPDeMouy

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5j.

Re: Essences versus Framework

Posted by: "Sean Wilson" whoooo26505@xxxxxxxxx   whoooo26505

Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:20 pm (PST)



(J)

... one point and two sillies:

The point:  I proposed what I thought to be a Wittgensteinian understanding of polysemy here:  http://ssrn.com/abstract=1405451  The idea is that "chair" as in "chairman" involves a different family resemblance. If you've got the wrong families, in my book, you've got the wrong word. I even argue that the rules of the language culture support this (but the matter is just innocent conjecture).   

The sillies:

If a picture of a chair is not a "chair," then it is of no use to a claim that all chairs share the same framework. You'd have to find a member of "chair" (an inclusion) that violated the framework (a seating arrangement). Lounge chair seems to do it. Picture of a chair doesn't, because we both agree it isn't one.

I still can't agree that replicas or honoraria would do it. It doesn't matter that you can't sit on it, it matters that it have the seating framework. The key is not that people actually sit on that specific one, it's that the thing has the seating framework (derived from their social learning). 

But anyway, I've abandoned the idea. I already took it out of the paper.
 
Thanks and regards.

Dr. Sean Wilson, Esq.
Assistant Professor
Wright State University
Personal Website: http://seanwilson.org
SSRN papers: http://ssrn.com/author=596860
Discussion Group: http://seanwilson.org/wittgenstein.discussion.html

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5k.

Re: Essences versus Framework versus Causal

Posted by: "jrstern" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:14 pm (PST)



--- In Wittrs@yahoogroups.com, "J D" <wittrsamr@...> wrote:
>
> JRS,
>
> > I'm not quite sure what you mean by genera and differentia,
>
> A fairly good explanation can be found here
>
> http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Genus:differentia:definition.html

It seems a generic definition, not well differentiated from a
dozen others. :)

> > but either that or another system would be type/token.
>
> Well, yes, chairs could be called a type but also a token of those types of things upon which we sit. I'm not sure how that phraseology clarifies matters though. Perhaps you could elaborate?

Type/token are the terms most frequently used in philosophy,
but in object-oriented computer programming (OOP)
there are similar terms
like class/instance or data type, that can work in a dozen different
ways depending on just which language or system you look at. The
advantage they offer is widespread and explicit use, as is seldom
the case for any purely philosophical term.

It clarifies matters as a methodology that allows computational
systems to take on various and sundry problems, including
computational theories of mind. The larger question is then why
one might want to use computational systems to take on problems
like philosophy of mind. Certainly Wittgenstein did not see any
point in it. But, just perhaps, the now common practices of computer
programming are beyond anything that Wittgenstein ever saw or
understood.

> > But certainly the most trendy or popular or newest fashion
> > would probably follow from Kripke's causal theories, or modal
> > logic, or whatever it is we are supposed to learn from Naming and
> > Necessity - which in some circles is after all just seen as a kind
> > of neo-essentialism anyway.
>
> I believe that "chair" would be considered a "functional kind" and so not fit into such a framework, concerned as it is with proper names and "natural kinds".

Natural kinds, unnatural kinds, what the heck. I'm not much of a
believer in natural kinds, neither scientifically nor
philosophically. Have you read Ruth Garrett Millikan? She's
very big on kinds. Plymouth Valiant is a good kind for her.
I forget her term of art (I'm not at home with my notes).

Neither do I recall offhand Kripke's examples for non-natural kinds,
but I don't see why "chair" doesn't fit into his designation/modal
framework.

--

Now, is type/token significantly different from "grammar"? Well,
it's a question of the programming language grammar for such
things. Then what?

Josh

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5l.

Re: Essences versus Framework versus Causal

Posted by: "J D" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:37 pm (PST)



JRS,

> But, just perhaps, the now common practices of computer
> programming are beyond anything that Wittgenstein ever saw or
> understood.

I suspect he understood an amount that might surprise our contemporaries - from discussions with Turing, from Ramsey's exposing him to ideas from Peirce (such as the type/token distinction) whose ideas have been a big influence on computer science terminology, and from exposure to ideas in the Brentanian tradition, the Vienna Circle, et al, which also have influenced computer science.

> Have you read Ruth Garrett Millikan?

Not firsthand but only by way of references elsewhere. Is "Biosemantics" the term you were searching for?

> Now, is type/token significantly different from "grammar"? Well,
> it's a question of the programming language grammar for such
> things. Then what?

I'm not sure I understand the question. The type/token distinction in semiotics can be used to draw distinctions we might wish to make in a grammatical investigation. And it is a distinction people would make in various ways on an ad hoc basis in various contexts anyway, so I'd certainly say it's part of grammar. The type/token distinction as a notion of classes and instances is certainly something that is a part of our grammar - the grammar of formal theories in logic and set theory, in various classificatory schemes in the sciences, and in ordinary English.

JPDeMouy

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6a.

Re: Nietzsche

Posted by: "J D" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sun Jan 10, 2010 4:55 pm (PST)



Reposting this because apparently the way I mailed it prevented its reaching all of the servers.

> > (Apparently, there's only individual with whom I am not fair.)
>
> You lost me on that one.
>

I was being petty (not toward you). It's not important.

> The Doors played the Ed Sullivan show. Morrison and the band were
> asked to drop the word "higher" given its illegal overtones. Jim said
> it anyway. Confronted by Ed as well as the producers after the number,
> the band was told that they never would play the Ed Sullivan show
> again. Nietzsche enthusiast Jim was, he sardonically piped something
> to the effect, "What do you mean? We already played your show!"
>

That's a great story, though I wonder if Nietzsche was actually what Jim
had in mind at the time. Perhaps.

JPDeMouy

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6b.

Re: Nietzsche

Posted by: "Sean Wilson" whoooo26505@xxxxxxxxx   whoooo26505

Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:06 pm (PST)



(J)

What didn't it reach?
 
SW

----- Original Message ----
From: J D <ubersicht@gmail.com>
To: wittrsamr@freelists.org
Sent: Sun, January 10, 2010 7:55:35 PM
Subject: [Wittrs] Re: Nietzsche

Reposting this because apparently the way I mailed it prevented its reaching all of the servers.

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7.

National Science Foundation (NSF) Discoveries - Synthetic Brains

Posted by: "wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:26 pm (PST)



The following link at the National Science Foundation (http://www.nsf.gov) has been sent to you by sekhar <rgoteti@yahoo.com>.

National Science Foundation (NSF) Discoveries - Synthetic Brains http://www.nsf.gov/discoveries/disc_summ.jsp?cntn_id=112947&org=NSF

8a.

[C] Re: On When the New Wittgenstein Arrived (Again)

Posted by: "J D" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:51 pm (PST)



SW,

I first want to emphasize that the idea of a "middle" or "transitional" period that includes much of the first half of the 1930s can be found in Stroll, Stern, and Hacker, all of whom have undoubtedly read Monk and the latter of whom are noted for their close examination of the wider Nachlass, including material likely unavailable to Monk at the time he wrote DoG. Such an "appeal to authority" does not make my interpretation correct but it does suggest that it isn't obviously wrong. (On the other hand, we'd agree that placing BBB in such a transitional period would be wrong. And so do they.)

I do think you're onto something in suggesting that we may be talking about different things. I'd be inclined to characterize it as a contrast between hagiographic and hermeneutic concerns. Put another way, we might distinguish between "a man going through a transition" and "a man's ideas going through a transition", and in that case it may be that our "hero's journey" has passed through the "crisis stage" sometime in 1930, but that his seeing "how to go on" and his actually applying that approach to working through old ideas and developing new ones could well take longer.

I'd remind you of my remarks concerning the "cash value" of periodization. What I emphasized in those remarks could be called an issue of "presumptive consistency": a scheme of periodization gives us a rule of thumb for judging how much we can treat various works as reflecting a consistent view on various topics. That's a hermeneutic concern and I take it that this is the concern to which the remarks of exegetes such as the aforementioned Stroll, Stern, and Hacker would be addressed. (A further rule of thumb is that concerns in transitional works give clues to the understanding of where Wittgenstein identified problems in the early work and how he came to alternatives in the later works.)

You compared phenomenology in Wittgenstein's transitional period to a "band-aid" and I think that's somewhat apt. But in continuing that metaphor, the band-aid did had not come off when he dictated BT in 1932/1933. While it's not in PG, there is a section on phenomenology in BT that is quite similar to phenomenological remarks in PR. If someone continues to wear a band-aid, that's good reason to suppose that the wound hasn't entirely healed. Or alternatively (and here's where the metaphor becomes strained), they may not yet recognize the band-aid as such but mistake it for healed flesh.

Now, I'll comment directly on some of your specific remarks.

> 1. rejection of elementary propositions and logical
> inference.

Just to be clear, there is nothing that could be called a rejection of logic inference anywhere in Wittgenstein's work. And the idea of elementary propositions wasn't rejected in the passage you quote. What was rejected was the idea that all logical inference was could be accomodated in the form of tautologies demonstrable in the propositional calculus. And the corrolary of that: the idea that all elementray propositions are mutually independent.

In rejecting that idea and its corrolary, the idea of "tautology" - or at any rate, "logical inference" - is shown to involve more than the propositional calculus (read: the method of truth-tables) can accomodate. This is in no way a rejection of logical inference and to call this (or anything else Wittgenstein ever wrote) "anti-logic" would be highly misleading.

Whether he has rejected elementray propositions is another matter. Certainly the conception has changed and so clearly he has rejected elementary propositions as described in the Tractatus. But he still speaks of them and treats their relations are being determined by their place in "logical space". That's not early Wittgenstein. It's not late Wittgenstein either. It's transitional. And it occurs in BT, which he was dictating in 1933.

In the full remark from which you quoted, as it appears in WWK, Wittgenstein explicitly prefaces the remarks you provided saying, "I used to have two conceptions of elementary propositions, one of which seems correct to me, while I was completely wrong in holding the other." (That clearly shows that calling these remarks evidence that he'd rejected elementary propositions is at the very least quite misleading.) He then proceeds to describe his first assumption, viz. that analysis of propositions would "eventually reach propositions that are immiediate connections of objects without any help from the logical constants." And he says, "I still adhere to that." He then spells out why he rejects the independence of elementary propositions, as I described above.

He adds, "in cases where propositions are independent everything remains valid - the whole theory of inference and so forth"(!)

(As a part of logical theory, the theory of formal systems, it is valid. But in the later work, the theory of formal systems is not considered the appropriate method of dispelling philosophical confusion, whatever value such theory may have in other contexts.)

You also misquote him (inadvertently I assume), "without paying much attention to their inner connection." "(T)heir" in this sentence would read as referring to the inner connection between logical constants. (Whatever that might mean.) But that's wrong. What he actually said was, "without paying attention to the inner connection of propositions."

(Cf. PG 5, p.215: "If we had grammar set out in the form of a book, it wouldn't be a series of chapters side by side, it would have quite a different structure. And it is here, if I am right, that we would have to see the distinction between phenomenological and non-phenomenological. There would be, say, a chapter about colours, setting out the rules for the use of colour-words; but there would be nothing comparable in what the grammar had to say about the
words 'not', 'or', etc. (the 'logical constants').")

As I've said, the independence of elementary propositions was the first domino to fall. But his rejection of that alone does not bring him to the ideas of the later work, an an examination of these remarks clearly demonstrates.

> 2. introduction of a central role for grammar.

First, an observation. The remarks on the circle have antecedents in Poincare and Hilbert, who is described as a Formalist, so whatever you may have meant by your later reference to "anti-formalistic" talk, to describe this as "anti-formalistic" would be highly misleading. If anything, these remarks would be illustrations of Wittgenstein's Formalism, though that comparison is easily pushed too far.

Second, "a central role for grammar" (or "syntax", which he also uses at this time) could equally describe the early Wittgenstein!

Third, the point I would emphasize is that the transition to treating philosophical problems as entirely grammatical involves the insight that where we may be tempted to look to phenomenology, we are actually dealing with grammar. "Phenomenology is grammar", declares a headline from BT. But this is not the sort of claim he would later make. On the contrary, Wittgenstein would later emphasize the difference, as in RC I.53, "The is no such thing as phenomenology, but there are indeed phenomenological problems." And PC II, "Here the temptation to believe in a phenomenology, something midway between science and logic, is very great."

There are four reasons at least for eschewing talk of phenomenology. The first is that the picture of intuiting essences through such a method does not sit at all easily with either the insights about symptoms and criteria or with insights about family resemblance. The second is that the picture suggests "private objects" and runs afoul of the insights concerning talk of "private ostensive definition". Third, the temptation to confuse such an investigation with some sort of descriptive psychology is just too great, although that's a problem of which Wittgenstein was well aware of early on. And fourth, the notion of some special discipline or activity whose business it is to investigate essences, the very idea of phenomenology, militates against the insight that grammar is arbitrary.

> 3. Rejection of doctrines and theses as philosophical
> method;

This insight is vital to what was to come, but recognizing it and working through one's various ideas with this insight in mind are two quite different things. Resisting the temptations of substantive doctrine is extremely difficult and it should not surprise us in the least if learning to catch himself being so tempted and to reorient his thinking in light of this awareness took no small amount of work.

> 4. Seeing philosophical method as a craft or technique
> (rather than formulating proofs).

First, formulating proofs is a technique (or a family of techniques).

Second, being "business like" could equally describe phenomenology. The idea of a method for setting out to achieve piecemeal but lasting results contrasted with trying to construct a systematic philosophy from first principles is as much a part of the propaganda of Phenomenology and as Ordinary Language Philosophy. So his having finding a method that seemed "business like" to him and his continuing to think in terms of phenomenology are not incompatible.

> 5. waffling on the verification principle soon
> after reinforcing it to Schlick and Waisman in the same
> year. (Monk doesn't give a date, but the suggestion is 1930
> [if this is wrong, it could be important if after 32:]

Actually, the remark was recorded by Gasking and Jackson, both of whom (if memory serves) didn't study at Cambridge until the late 30s. Among other things, they recorded some of Wittgenstein's lectures on mathematics in 1939. I don't know the exact time frame of their attendance and don't have the source text handy but 1930 doesn't seem plausible. That he is here recounting ways that he had been misunderstood in things he said, ca. 1930 is quite likely though.

> 6. Announcing in the lectures of the Lent term of 1930 that
> philosophy's role is to dispel puzzles of language, and
> that doing so involves spelling out grammar

Again, how one is to go about this (phenomenology?) could still be an open question. As could be the question of grammar's arbitrariness.

> 7. Arriving for the Fall term, Wittgenstein had a clear
> conception of the right method in philosophy...
> ... I am not interested in constructing a building, so much
> as in having a perspicuous view of the foundations of
> possible buildings." (300-301)

Remarks similar to those I've already made apply here as well, but I want to emphasize another point with regard to that last quotation: it is ambiguous with regard to matters that would later be important. We speak of different buildings having different foundations but we also speak of a single building having "foundations" as well as "a foundation", so it isn't clear whether he is supposing that there is a single foundation (or kind of foundation) to various possible buildings or whether different buildings might have entirely different foundations.

(Cf. the issue of primitive language games as preparatory sketches, as showing historical priority, as showing logical priority, or as objects of comparison, and the reflections on the idea of Urpflanze and so forth.)

Such a statement is actually suggestive of this, from the first chapter of PR:

"A recognition of what is essential and what inessential in our language if it is to represent, a recognition of which parts of our language are wheels turning idly, amounts to the construction of a phenomenological language."

"Physics differs from phenomenology in that it is concerned to establish laws. Phenomenology only establishes the possibilities. Thus, phenomenology would be the grammar of the description of those facts on which physics builds its theories."

Also, even if we take "foundations" as indicating a variety of possible foundations, the idea that he is concerned with the foundations of possible buildings still suggests a distinction between what is essential or inessential in our language.

Then there's the whole idea of "foundations", which would be subject to much scrutiny in OC as well as PI.

I don't think the quotation is as clearly "late Wittgenstein" as you seem to suppose.

JPDeMouy

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