[wisb] Re: counting after the fact birds
- From: Jesse Ellis <calocitta8@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: birdmandan1231@xxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 21:11:53 -0500
Hey all-
Good rainy day question. There are definitely two levels to this
question. One is the issue of whether the bird was really there, from
a reporting standpoint. Of course it was - you have a photo of it! It
should be eBirded (by someone or something), counted on country,
state, and local lists, etc. It can definitely be part of the
ornithological record.
Should YOU count it? I'm with Danny and Greg on this - if you didn't
have the pleasure of noticing and judging the bird in the field, I say
no. How is your photo different from any photo in Birding magazine or
National Geographic? I personally don't count every bird I've ever
seen a photo of. As well, I've laid my eyes on lots of things, but did
I see them all? No. If I am on the same corner as a friend, and am
looking at the crowd, but don't notice them waving at me, did I see
them? The light bouncing off their waving hand probably entered my
eyes, but I didn't see them.
If you said "that bird is weird", snap a photo and note some field
marks, and then you go and ID it later, I say take it. Maybe you
didn't have your field guide on you (like a good birder shouldn't -
take notes!) - in this case, the camera is like a really fast pencil,
taking notes for you. But using a camera to drag stuff out of the
woodwork feels a bit like stretching to me. You didn't get to know
that bird, for any period of time. That's what birding is to me,
getting to know the birds.
That all said, lists are one's own personal record. If you're hoping
to compare with other birders, though, I suspect the American Birding
Association might have something to say about such birds, or if they
don't, they perhaps should start formulating a policy. I believe state
records-keepers probably also would look askance at counting such
birds.
Jesse Ellis
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 8:32 PM, Danny Akers <birdmandan1231@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I'm in full agreement with Greg and I'm doubtful I could have said it as well.
>
> As an addendum, go back to that group of shorebirds. Let's say they were in
> flight this time around. Are you going to be able to identify every species
> of shorebirds in a massive flock as it moves around for a few seconds? Per
> the argument at hand, the last Curlew Sandpiper in Iowa was identified this
> way. To my knowledge, it wasn't identified in the field, it was later
> identified in a photo of the flock. Whether or not the Curlew Sandpiper is on
> the list of the original observer(s) I have no idea, but I don't believe it
> should be. If one cannot recognize that this bird is odd (or rare) in the
> field, why should one be allowed to count it later?
>
> The question I'll pose is this.... what happens when you prepare to write the
> documentation for that bird without the photo. What do you remember? My guess
> is next to nothing.
>
> Danny Akers
> Iowa City & Ankeny, IA
> BirdManDan1231@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>> From: gseegert@xxxxxxxxx
>> To: wisbirdn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 20:10:51 -0400
>> Subject: [wisb] counting after the fact birds
>>
>> All
>> In regard to Wayne's query, I believe you should only count birds you "see"
>> and the only place to see them is in the field. Where and how you made the
>> ID is not relevant. I'm not a photographer so this is all moot for me. Let's
>> use a couple of examples. Say you're looking at a group of 10 shorebirds and
>> you see one that looks different, which you think is either Baird's or
>> white-rumped...so you take a photo. Later, based on that photo, you conclude
>> it's a white-rumped. To me that's a countable bird. You saw it, noted
>> something about it that caught your eye and identified it later. The same
>> logic applies whether you used a photo to ID it or in my case walked back to
>> the car to look at one of my books to jog my memory about how to distinguish
>> these two species.
>>
>> Now let's change the scenario a little. You still have the same flock of 10
>> shorebirds but the photo you get includes the whole flock, not just the one
>> odd bird that has you puzzled. Upon looking at the photo you still aren't
>> sure so you send it to Expert A. You say, " Dear Expert A, the third bird
>> from the left in his photo has me stumped. Is it a Bairds or WR?" His/her
>> reply....."I thought you'd be asking me about the fifth bird from the left
>> which happens to be a red-necked stint. Oh, BTW, the third bird from the
>> left is a western sandpiper". Aside from feeling somewhat embarrassed, you
>> can count the western. You misidentified it, but you saw it and realized it
>> was different. You simply got the ID wrong....been there, done that. But can
>> (should) you count the stint. You probably looked through the whole flock,
>> though perhaps rather hastily so technically speaking you did see it. But
>> should you count it? I say absolutely not. You had no clue this bird was the
>> re. You shouldn't get to count it You blew it. You shouldn't get a do-over.
>> Should you report this bird to the hotline? Absolutely because the bird was
>> really there, it is just that, in my opinion, you never saw it. Otherwise,
>> pretty soon we'll have people counting birds they saw over a web cam in
>> Brazil or birds they see in the background of a photo they took at
>> Yellowstone 14 years ago. In my opinion you can have a list..."birds seen on
>> webcams" or "birds seen in old photos", but again, in the spirit of what I
>> think birding should be...seeing AND identifying (with or without the help
>> of books and experts) birds.... the stint shouldn't count.
>>
>> Greg Seegert
>> Deerfield, IL
>>
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>
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>
--
Jesse Ellis
Post-doctoral Researcher
Dept. of Zoology
University of Wisconsin - Madison
Madison, Dane Co, WI
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