[THIN] Re: Matrix for Metaframe XP (ICA) and Windows 2003's Terminal Services (RDP)
- From: Cláudio Rodrigues <Claudio.Rodrigues@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:22:48 -0400
Answers inline...
Cláudio Rodrigues
Microsoft MVP
Windows Technologies - Terminal Server
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Ron Oglesby
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 9:28 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Matrix for Metaframe XP (ICA) and Windows 2003's
Terminal Services (RDP)
Claudio makes some good points but I really have to hit a few things.
Now Citrix and I have had our wars but I really need to talk to these
points a little because I think, while minor, are still important:
[Quoted]
Althoug MetaFrame has its bells and whistles, you need to remember one
thing: Terminal Services is the car. MetaFrame is the premium package.
If you do need the extra features like Published apps, Intelligent Load
Balancing, Gateway support, SecurID integration and so on, MetaFrame may
be the way to go.
[Ron] very true. But it is more than that right... I mean if you have
seen a TS only environment above about 20 or 30 servers it begins to get
ugly... Not that it can't be done right but the need to extra tools from
different vendors comes into play etc etc.. now you have 4 different
types of software just to manage or run the env. Etc..
==> Sure it is. The key thing is among any 10000 companies, how many
have 20 or more TS boxes? Not many. I do agree if you have such a large
environment (20 servers usually we are talking about 1000+ concurrent
sessions) Citrix shines. But for 100 concurrent users (usually this
means 2, 3 servers) is Citrix really needed? IMHO, in 90% of the cases
for 2, 3 servers, no.
[Quoted]
Keep in mind for example, New Moon's Canaveral IQ 2.0
when on top of 2003, will give you pretty much everything Citrix does.
At a much lower price.
[Ron] Well they are much lower and give you the basic functionality if
you are only using the basic functions. This means they give you some
seamless apps, and a better interface for the end users and a little
better mgmt and load balancing BUT they still lack the security that
even my smaller environments are using/demanding (CSG)
==> Here I do not agree. They are 100% redundant. Their UPD puts Citrix
UPD to a shame. Better integration to AD (Citrix you could not publish
apps to OUs for example). Security in most cases, 128-bit encryption on
RDP plus a product like my WTSGateway, will give you a single gateway to
access as many TSs as you have, with the gateway being the only machine
accessing the TSs. So basically New Moon with TS 2003, SP1 loaded (to
add SSL) and my WTSGateway you will have pretty much the same as Citrix
+ CSG. Again at a 50% lower price tag. Note again, Citrix still has its
own bells and whistles and shines in some cases. My point is for the
average company, from 2-8 servers, usually Citrix is overkill. Other
solutions as mentioned will give end-users the same functionality,
security and for admins, maybe a faster and easier interface to manage
everything.
[quoted]
I would say 90% of the companies do not need all
the features Citrix has and/or are not using them. Also many
small/medium companies (another huge market) simply does not go for
Citrix thanks to its huge price tag.
[ron]
This is true to an extent but check out iforum and you will see that
there are a 1000 people there with 4-10 server environments in medium
size businesses. As far as the TS customers staying with TS only because
of price.... That is until this last few weeks where our smaller
customers have been calling about needing Citrix and the CSG because
their remote/home dial-in and VPN users infected their network with
Blaster et al
Now they are talking Citrix and CSG to keep those users from becoming
nodes on the network. I am a firm believer that the CSG can be done to
be more secure and less of a network risk than a VPN.
==> Most of my clients do not have VPN access to TS servers. None of
them got hit by these viruses. And even with many having the TSs NATted
directly from the Internet, no one ever hacked them. IMHO there is too
much concern about TS security. No one was able to point me one customer
that had a TS hacked through ICA/RDP. This in 11 years, since I started
working with OS/2 WinView. Some products like SecureRDP (that works with
ICA also) will filter the connetion to the TS before you can see the
logon screen. This by IP/MAC address/Client Version/Computer Name and so
on. This not even Citrix does.
The point here is not all environments will need the overkill, redundant
security like RDP (encrypted) over VPN (encrypted) or ICA (encrypted)
over SSL. Sometimes the simple way is still the best way to do it. :-)
[quoted]
Even my product, WTSPortal will give you Published Apps and Seamless
Windows. :-)
[ron]
cool
==> Resuming: Citrix is a great product. Period. But there are other
options to any environment where Citrix is viable. The good consultant
will completely understand the environment in question and based on
that, suggest the right product, with no ties to company A or B. For
example I just finished a 500 user deployment where I had no other
option than Citrix. Given the features/requirements/environment Citrix
was the best option.
But I also finished other projects with pure TS 2003, TS 2000 with New
Moon and TS 2003 with my own products.
Again, I do recommend people to read a lot more than they do and try not
to think only about the first big name you hear. Compare. Get demos if
possible. Setup a lab. Compare the products. Get the best bang for your
money.
See ya!
Ron Oglesby
Senior Technical Architect
RapidApp
Office 312.372.7188
Mobile 815.325.7618
email roglesby@xxxxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: Cláudio Rodrigues [mailto:Claudio.Rodrigues@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 11:34 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Matrix for Metaframe XP (ICA) and Windows 2003's
Terminal Services (RDP)
Althoug MetaFrame has its bells and whistles, you need to remember one
thing: Terminal Services is the car. MetaFrame is the premium package.
If you do need the extra features like Published apps, Intelligent Load
Balancing, Gateway support, SecurID integration and so on, MetaFrame may
be the way to go. Keep in mind for example, New Moon's Canaveral IQ 2.0
when on top of 2003, will give you pretty much everything Citrix does.
At a much lower price. I would say 90% of the companies do not need all
the features Citrix has and/or are not using them. Also many
small/medium companies (another huge market) simply does not go for
Citrix thanks to its huge price tag.
Even my product, WTSPortal will give you Published Apps and Seamless
Windows. :-)
So the key thing here to decide which product is the way to go in your
case is which features you need or you are looking for.
The matrix I saw lists simply protocol comparisons, client support and
minor features. Not the whole thing. It is on the Microsoft website.
Cláudio Rodrigues
Microsoft MVP
Windows Technologies - Terminal Server
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Anthony Abraham
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 11:49 PM
To: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [THIN] Matrix for Metaframe XP (ICA) and Windows 2003's
Terminal Services (RDP)
Hi
Does anyone have a matrix that compares Metaframe XP (ICA) and Windows
2003's Terminal Services (RDP). Ive seen older matrixes but would like
the
latest product comparisons. Our organisation is tossing up between the
2
technologies and the breakdown may assist my cause in pushing Citrix
Thanks
Anthony
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This Week's Sponsor - RTO Software / TScale
What's keeping you from getting more from your terminal servers? Did you
know, in most cases, CPU Utilization IS NOT the single biggest
constraint to scaling up?! Get this free white paper to understand the
real constraints & how to overcome them. SAVE MONEY by scaling-up rather
than buying more servers.
http://www.rtosoft.com/Enter.asp?ID=147
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Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at:
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For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or
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This Week's Sponsor - RTO Software / TScale
What's keeping you from getting more from your terminal servers? Did you
know, in most cases, CPU Utilization IS NOT the single biggest
constraint to scaling up?! Get this free white paper to understand the
real constraints & how to overcome them. SAVE MONEY by scaling-up rather
than buying more servers.
http://www.rtosoft.com/Enter.asp?ID=147
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This Week's Sponsor - RTO Software / TScale
What's keeping you from getting more from your terminal servers? Did you know,
in most cases, CPU Utilization IS NOT the single biggest constraint to scaling
up?! Get this free white paper to understand the real constraints & how to
overcome them. SAVE MONEY by scaling-up rather than buying more servers.
http://www.rtosoft.com/Enter.asp?ID=147
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Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at:
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New! Online Thin Computing Magazine Site
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